Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

motherjones.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 255 posts

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#51

Post by InclinedPlane »

jabbernotty wrote: post #48
InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

Some of what you mentioned here, if not most, seems specific to the USA, from my western European point of view. Do you know of any explanation for that?

Visibility for one. The French prison system is horrible, the British prison system is also pretty bad. Beyond that I'd have to blame the war on drugs and general societal attitudes. The general attitude seems to be that once you have been adjudicated a "bad guy" and are put into the prison population anything that happens to you is fair game.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#52

Post by mcintyre1994 »

I just don't understand how such a ridiculous system comes into being, these are people's lives, criminal yes, but people. Or do they just not think like that?

I mean, let's say you get sent to the SHU, I won't go into why because that's probably impossible without introducing circular logic. Now all your "associates", ie everybody who knows you in prison, can also be sent to the SHU. The only way out quickly is for you to "debrief", accuse some other people so they can be sent to the SHU in your place. But, how many people can you genuinely criminalise who aren't known associates? Judging by the fact they read prisoner's diaries, I'd infer surveillance is quite high, so surely the number of unknown criminal associates is pretty low? If that holds, then who do you "debrief" about? Like the article said, it's a catch-22, or at least should be. Instead the guards have a - according to a judge - legal right to make up stories, attribute them to you, forge your signature and incarcerate others on that basis.

It's so abstract it's bizarre. It just seems so dystopian, if you consider the world inside the prison where you're 'innocent' until you commit crime on the inside, that world would be ridiculed if they weren't criminals. Thrown in on false evidence, and the only way out is to give more false evidence. I don't understand how that ends up happening.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#53

Post by mcintyre1994 »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #34
Mordor wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the real hell is being left alone.

I tried both in my life and being left alone is so much better than forced to be with other random hostile people.

You tried being a solitary person (and decided it's for you; fair enough), not being locked in solitary confinement. Read this article, the difference is staggering.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#54

Post by maeon3 »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom.

Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil to punish people who do not deserve rehabilitation, correction or edification. Conditions have to be bad enough so that a large segment of the rock-bottom citizens don't commit crime just to get some hope. Therefore the conditions of prison have to be a few steps less desirable than being homeless, penniless, cloth less, hungry and with no hope of getting out of it.

It's my belief that jails are full of criminals because we don't understand the mental illnesses that brought them there. If we can do whole-brain simulation, emulation, and detection in a client, I think studying the body of brains in jail vs the body of brains outside jail will reveal some remarkable findings. It could be their ethical systems were coaxed into the off position, and we may be able to detect this before a person commits crime. Saying: "You better get your ethical centers back on-line, or we'll have to put you under increased surveillance".

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#55

Post by zupatol »

There's a wealth of information on solitary confinement in the US, including a few excellent articles like this one. This makes me think that the problem is on the way to being solved. A lot still needs to be done, but solitary confinement is now declining.

This site has a huge amount of information, this is probably also the place to look if you want to help: http://solitarywatch.com/

If you want to know more, a good place to start is this national geographic documentary http://documentarystorm.com/solitary-confinement/

and these two excellent articles https://www.byliner.com/susan-greene/stories/the-gray-box-an... http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_...

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#56

Post by cynicalkane »

scrapcode wrote: post #49
InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

I don't think anyone thinks the deterrent effect of prisons are ineffective. However, the at-risk populations who most often end up in prison are bad at weighing these deterrents, especially before they go there. Another factor is the quality of deterrence: the point is not to arbitrarily and randomly ruin peoples' lives. You want a high ratio of crime reduction to damage. A good penal system does this and bad penal system works the other way around. A lot of science suggests that the life-ruining factor is a significant counter-effect to the original goal of reducing crime and increasing quality of life in our democracy.

That's me being polite. If I was less polite, I would say how much I hate your ignorant, lazy self-righteousness and how this despicable and inhuman attitude is a major factor in how our system destroys people with little to no scientific justification.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#57

Post by InclinedPlane »

scrapcode wrote: post #49
InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

A very Hobbesian view of society, I see. Not one I subscribe to, nor one that, from my experience, is reflective of reality.

Prison experiences in the US are pretty horrific in the norm, and yet there are more people in prison than ever (as a percentage of the population), and many of them are there due to fairly minor or victimless crimes. There is some sort of dissonance there, and I think it comes down to the fact that fear is not the sole or even necessarily the primary motivator for behavior on the boundary of the law.

Also, there are countries where prison is not scary, where the criminal justice system raises rehabilitation above other concerns, and such places (such as Canada and the scandinavian countries) are not the lawless hellholes your theory of human behavior would have them be.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#58

Post by Djehngo »

maeon3 wrote: post #54
InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom. Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil to punish people w…

I am hoping this is satire and you aren't seriously arguing that "prisons have to be barbaric otherwise the homeless and the destitute would use them to avoid starvation".

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#59

Post by Someone »

Houshalter wrote: post #21
philwelch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about rehabilitation or punishment. It's far more cynical than that. It's simply a matter of separating people from the population. Prisoners are separated from the free population; especially dangerous prisoners are separated even from the prison population.

The main purpose of prison is to act as a disincentive. A lot of people don't commit crimes in the first place because they are scared of going to prison.

Similarly, would you claim that the main purpose of solitary is to act as a disincentive? If so, it clearly works as effectively as prison does in keeping people out of it.

If you want either to work as a disincentive, you first must make people be in control of whether they enter that next state of hell. This article clearly shows that prisoners aren't; they can just get sent to solitary (for decades!) because the wardens don't like them or find them a nuisance.

IMO, especially in the USA, many people aren't really in control w.r.t. the "do I want to go to prison?" question either. If you happen to be born in a poor neighborhood, you have to be exceptionally strong mentally not to get involved with petty crimes such as marihuana dealing, and if you do, you can get locked up. When you get out, you return to that poor neighborhood, and, having a record, you are certain that you cannot get a job anymore.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#60

Post by guard-of-terra »

yardie wrote: post #40
guard-of-terra wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how, given that hell is other people, and other people in prison are quite infernal. If I ever get in prison (which I hope to avoid but nobody can be guaranteed) I hope to be in solitary.

I think you fail to grasp what solitary actually means in the prison tense. It's not a few hours of sitting on the floor meditating. It is 1 hour of sunlight, you don't go anywhere, there are no computers. I used to think like that when I was younger, "going to prison getting raped?! I'll take solitary." Then someone that was released spoke at our college about what solitary really meant. I'll take my chances with th…

Well, do you get books? I think books can get you a long way.

The prison system we have around the world stimulates creating "professional" criminals by placing criminals among themselves. If we to break this cycle, we should get everyone a prison cell without inmates but with a window and books they can read.

Post reply on HN