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Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

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Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#101

Post by Ayabashi »

Filligree wrote: post #84
wes-exp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically, secure boot could help prevent bootkits (e.g. the "evil maid" attack). Although I have no idea whether this works in practice.

It does, if the stars align. The default setup of these computers (no full-disk encryption, easy to disable secure boot) typically means that it offers no such security. Look at Chromebook for an example of apparently doing it right.

The Chromebook is doing it right? Really?

It wipes your hard disk if you enable developer mode(which is a painful process in itself). And then at every single boot you either have to wait thirty seconds to go past a very scary warning or press Ctrl-D. Every single time you boot. If you switch back to ChromeOS, the hard disk is wiped again.

I would love to see HN commenters' reactions if on disabling Secure Boot, the Windows 8 partition is wiped along with any documents and files you saved locally and if you wanted Windows 8 back, it wiped your Linux partition in the name of security.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#102

Post by rbanffy »

wmf wrote: post #26
raylu wrote: post #3

What are the benefits of Secure Boot?

It prevents you from using Windows Loader to pirate Windows. (That's a benefit... to Microsoft.)

> That's a benefit... to Microsoft

That's debatable. For Microsoft, it's preferable you run a pirated Windows (and, hopefully, a pirated Office) than become part of a non-Microsoft ecosystem. Network effects apply and, as soon as too many people switch to non-Microsoft ecosystems, the value of using Microsoft decreases.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#103

Post by Filligree »

Ayabashi wrote: post #101
Filligree wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does, if the stars align. The default setup of these computers (no full-disk encryption, easy to disable secure boot) typically means that it offers no such security. Look at Chromebook for an example of apparently doing it right.

The Chromebook is doing it right? Really? It wipes your hard disk if you enable developer mode(which is a painful process in itself). And then at every single boot you either have to wait thirty seconds to go past a very scary warning or press Ctrl-D. Every single time you boot. If you switch back to ChromeOS, the hard disk is wiped again. I would love to see HN commenters' reactions if on disabling Secure Boot, the…

Where "doing it right" is defined as making the computer safe against maid attacks? Yes, this is how that looks.

I'm not saying it's actually secure; I haven't analyzed it in that kind of detail, and I don't even own one.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#104

Post by Ayabashi »

cookiecaper wrote: post #11
raylu wrote: post #3

What are the benefits of Secure Boot?

Secure Boot is ostensibly a security feature, making it impossible to load kernel-level code that hasn't been signed by an authority recognized by the device's hardware. The idea is that this makes it harder for nefarious actors to do nefarious things to your system, because they'll be blocked from the most basic access to the system hardware and be forced through normal OS security channels. In practice, of course,…

Even in practice, it stops undetectable bootkits, for example, like this one.

http://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792235/XPAJ_Reversi...

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#105

Post by pyxy »

Requesting for the linked page I get a message telling this resource is restricted by Russian Government because it "contains information restricted for propagation in Russian Federation". That's Rostelecom ISP. I could get the page using another ISP and don't see any "restricted information". Hm.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#106

Post by Ayabashi »

rbanffy wrote: post #100
Zr40 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secure Boot isn't about lock-in, at least not on PCs. To qualify for the Windows Logo program, it must be possible to disable Secure Boot.

As TFA notes, this may involve repeated resets during boot, added hardware and a whole lot of steps my mother wouldn't take. She'd just be coerced to use Windows.

I find it hard to believe that there are a lot of people who are tech savvy enough to be able to install, partition disks and configure Linux and bootloader on a Windows 7 machine, but are suddenly unable to turn off one setting in the BIOS setup on a Windows 8 machine. And to enable them, we need to make every Windows PC insecure by default and leave hundreds of millions of people vulnerable to undetectable bootkit viruses?

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#108

Post by Ayabashi »

rbanffy wrote: post #99
zimbatm wrote: post #93

Microsoft is doing the same thing as Apple with their iPhone and geeks get upset. Apple is not allowing arbitrary OS to run on their system unless you find an security hole and manage to work around the protection. I don't hear claims that Apple is having an uncompetitive behavior but obviously the difference is that they didn't take that away, iPhones have been locked down from day one. That said, I'm very much in t…

> Apple is not allowing arbitrary OS to run on their system Microsoft is not allowing arbitrary OSs to run on Dell's, Acer's, Lenovo's and Toshiba's hardware. If Microsoft wants to limit what Microsoft hardware can do, I'm fine with it - I just won't buy from them.

>Microsoft is not allowing arbitrary OSs to run on Dell's, Acer's, Lenovo's and Toshiba's hardware.

Dell, Acer, Lenovo and Toshiba all make Android tablets. At the least, Dell makes Linux Ultrabooks.

I don't get the distinction from Apple. If you don't want a Windows 8 machine,just don't buy it, you can always buy a Linux machine and support manufacturers who make them.

http://www.techdrivein.com/2010/09/7-providers-of-pre-instal...

If you can't buy a Macbook(even if you prefer the hardware) without paying for the OS, what entitles you to buy a Lenovo Thinkpad without paying for the OS? Apple takes ~50% of the profits in the PC OEM industry.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#109

Post by speeder »

vog wrote: post #91
Zak wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I paid money for Windows 8 when I bought my Dell Dell almost certainly preloaded some software in exchange for compensation that almost certainly exceeded what Dell paid for their Windows license. Even ignoring the testing, support and return issues people usually bring up, Dell probably couldn't sell the computer for a lower price with no OS or a free OS without losing money. In short, third parties effectively paid…

Dell probably couldn't sell the computer for a lower price with no OS or a free OS without losing money I find this hard to believe, even when considering all the mechanisms you mentioned. Do you have any evidence for this very counter-intuitive hypothesis? IOW: Citation needed

When I was shopping for laptops I found several Dell models with Ubuntu, all of them were 100 USD more expensive than with Windows.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#110

Post by nivla »

mjg59 wrote: post #18
Dylan16807 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? I understand not waiting for slow hardware to settle, but the entire usb bus is going to get skipped, even the most lightning-quick hardware?

Yes. USB init won't happen until the Windows kernel starts.

I find that very hard to believe atleast based off my experience. How else are you supposed to do USB boot ups? Almost all OS I installed recently has been through USB Drives and not to mention I use a USB keyboard to key into the BIOS.
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