Many of the, probably, younger people here are understandably confused at all the vitriol directed at this Dave Winer whenever his name comes up. It probably seems mysterious and irrational, if you're not familiar with the context, which is decades of behavior that simply disqualifies him to chastise others about honesty or decency. To get caught up, start at http://www.mackido.com/Press/CarlsSaga.html .
Hacker News is depressing
271–280 of 398 posts
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#272The problem is he implored people to stop being "personal" while calling them "assholes." Ad hominems and hypocrisy do not typically help if your actual agenda is to improve the situation.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#273Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. Otherwise, include a license with your work, state that it is copyrighted, and still expect people to say whatever they want about you or it... Or, put it on your own private network, known as Not-The-Internet.
The 1886 Berne Convention first established recognition of copyrights among sovereign nations, rather than merely bilaterally. Under the Berne Convention, copyrights for creative works do not have to be asserted or declared, as they are automatically in force at creation: an author need not "register" or "apply for" a copyright in countries adhering to the Berne Convention.[10] As soon as a work is "fixed", that is,…
Honest question -- is it conceivable that the work is never "fixed" on some physical medium? Years ago, I thought "internet law" was a silly concept -- but as in the case above, the letter of the law might not be enough to support the spirit of the law.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
The sooner people understand that anti-social behaviour is about community and not about rights the better, but I still see people confusing the two. Yes you've got a right to be rude, you've also got a right to blather on for two hours about Dragonball Z. Both behaviours will leave adults concluding that you're not capable of mature discussion. And if you and your mates establish a norm of anti-social behaviour, you…
Young men are the only group to whom you can arbitrarily assign a negative stereotype without encountering any backlash it seems. In my opinion similarly aged female social groups are often just as excluding of people - though not, perhaps, in the same way. I have no problem with the idea that in this community, Paul Graham is the best role model for communication. But let's not pretend that the place is flawed purel…
You make a very good point. There are other groups e.g. bankers, but they tend to be privileged groups. This point was made to me quite memorably this Christmas. A local group was collecting presents for orphans. I brouyght in two boxes for kids the same age as my daughter. In the whole community, 14-16 year old boys got one box. Next year, I plan to get something for them (if only I can figure out what a 14-16 year old would like that doesn't require power and will fit in a shoebox).
The 14-year old CoD player is, however, not just a stereotype, but pretty much the archetype of what happens in online communities that don't self-police behaviour. The standard of discourse engages in a race to the bottom, where shouting beats listening.
This isn't necessary, even in Shooters: I used to play Unreal in an online community back in the day, and the chat was friendly ("played", or "well played" was one of the standard things you said when you got shot). Even the taunts were actually funny (often Monkey Island references). However, that's a long time ago: I don't find online shooters a fun place to hang out anymore.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
The 1886 Berne Convention first established recognition of copyrights among sovereign nations, rather than merely bilaterally. Under the Berne Convention, copyrights for creative works do not have to be asserted or declared, as they are automatically in force at creation: an author need not "register" or "apply for" a copyright in countries adhering to the Berne Convention.[10] As soon as a work is "fixed", that is,…
Honest question -- is it conceivable that the work is never "fixed" on some physical medium? Years ago, I thought "internet law" was a silly concept -- but as in the case above, the letter of the law might not be enough to support the spirit of the law.
Hard drives are a physical medium.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fixed_in_a_tangible_medium_of...
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#276I'm not sure what he's proposing. If he means let site owners specify that people not be able to submit their sites to HN, I've actually daydreamed occasionally about doing that myself for paulgraham.com. But it might not work in practice, because determined submitters would just mirror the text elsewhere and submit that. He's right though that Twitter has a big advantage in that it's easy to ignore jerks. It might b…
Not everyone is a determined submitter. Perfect is the enemy of good, and all that. (Still not sure the feature should exist, though.)
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#277I'm not sure what he's proposing. If he means let site owners specify that people not be able to submit their sites to HN, I've actually daydreamed occasionally about doing that myself for paulgraham.com. But it might not work in practice, because determined submitters would just mirror the text elsewhere and submit that. He's right though that Twitter has a big advantage in that it's easy to ignore jerks. It might b…
Could be interesting to test a "block user" feature where enough blocks within a time span results in a temp or permanent ban. An inability of new accounts to post for a couple of days, might also curb the drive-by behavior.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no fundamental incompatibility between being honest and being respectful and understanding. You can tell someone “you suck, go back to the corner of the Internet you came from, I don't have time for this”, or you can tell them “your skills don't seem to be quite at the level where we can accept your contributions; in particular, you don't understand X, Y, and Z very well and it shows in your code. I'm short…
I understand that this might be specific to me, but I'd actually rather have someone tell me: "You're useless. For god's sake stop contributing until you get your sh t together" rather than: “your skills don't seem to be quite at the level where we can accept your contributions; in particular, you don't understand X, Y, and Z very well and it shows in your code. I'm short on time, but if someone else has time to expl…
If that's true I think it is pretty specific to you, and honestly I doubt that you would actually prefer it in practice. It's easy to say you can take the abuse when it's clearly framed as an alternative to a polite comment, not so easy when you get piled on by a bunch of obnoxious commenters. Emotional maturity makes it easier to deal with, but it still sucks.
Also you can still give a franker response without being blatantly derisive: "Thanks for your contributions, but I'm afraid they do not meet the quality standards of our project. I think you might need to learn a little more about X, Y and Z, before you do any more work."
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Internet is not yours. If you put content on the PUBLIC Internet, consider yourself to be consenting to any abuse the Internet as a whole wishes to dish out in return.
Really? So if a person decides to post a picture of themselves on their blog, they're consenting to having that picture photomanipulated onto hardcore pornography then emailed to their family and co-workers, for example?
So, either have a laugh about it, or you don't put personally-identifying info up on the 'net.
Shocking, I know, that maybe oversharing is a bad idea without some permissions mechanisms in place.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand that this might be specific to me, but I'd actually rather have someone tell me: "You're useless. For god's sake stop contributing until you get your sh t together" rather than: “your skills don't seem to be quite at the level where we can accept your contributions; in particular, you don't understand X, Y, and Z very well and it shows in your code. I'm short on time, but if someone else has time to expl…
The more polite response gives at least some shred of a foothold on which the recipient can find out how to better themselves. "Fix your shit" does't explain how your shit is lacking, or the major things you don't understand. e.g., if I were to post some patch that used bubble sort, one could easily say " This is total crap. Don't come back until you fix your shit ". If I were a noob, that wouldn't help me contribute…
Programming, more so than many other fields, has a strong tradition of self-improvement and education. Tell any "noob" that they are an idiot for using bubble sort and they should have more than enough resources and know-how to figure out why they are wrong and correct it themselves. (Either they independently invented it themselves, in which case they are at least moderately clever and you just told them the name of what they created (what they should google), or they googled it in the first place so they should be able to google it again).
Is it best, in a controlled environment with both low signal and noise, to take your time and explain things in detail in a "civil" manner? Sure. That works great in (small) classrooms for example. In a public kernel dev mailing lists though? No, a fuck off should suffice. If the recipient of the fuck off wants more, they can seek it in a more appropriate place.
IRC is somewhere in the middle; usually civility or ignoring the person works best. This is particularly true since most IRC channels are fairly explicitly there for people who want to give or receive advice. I've only told someone who was seeking help from me on IRC to fuck off once, and that is when he demanded I talk with him on skype instead of IRC, and pressed the issue.
Edit: I suppose I shouldn't expect a civil response if I explain in a civil manner why I don't think civility is always necessary. Hoisted by my own petard perhaps?