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Hacker News is depressing

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Re: Hacker News is depressing

#111

Post by doorhammer »

zeteo wrote: post #84
simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

>the meanness of programming communities is a the biggest problem we have Or maybe it's our biggest asset. In a world filled with bullshit (how many people you think really empathize with you - vs. just going through the motions?), it's refreshing to have a little corner where they honestly tell you why your ideas suck and your background is deficient. It kind of comes with the profession, yes. Only a relentlessly cr…

You can cut out a lot of bullshit without being an asshole; it's just another set of social skills.

Being an asshole also doesn't inherently cut out bullshit.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#112

Post by john_fushi »

zeteo wrote: post #84
simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

>the meanness of programming communities is a the biggest problem we have Or maybe it's our biggest asset. In a world filled with bullshit (how many people you think really empathize with you - vs. just going through the motions?), it's refreshing to have a little corner where they honestly tell you why your ideas suck and your background is deficient. It kind of comes with the profession, yes. Only a relentlessly cr…

I often see the 'honesty' argument when people talk about the programmer community being mean. The way I see it, most of the time there is no more honesty than anywhere else. People jump on some hate bandwagon whether it is bullshit or not. Or sometimes, there is just some fad going on and everyone jump on the love train where critical thinking is met with a defensive/reactionary attitude.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#113

Post by moomin »

gwgarry wrote: post #64
simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

We have as much right to defend the behavior as you have to attack it. It's an arbitrary questions of norms and of tolerance to criticism. In modern society it seems that we're so isolated and insecure in ourselves that we can't handle criticism and meanness. That everyone must be over socialized to be overly concerned about what everyone else thinks and not be concerned about the objectivity of what we're trying to…

The sooner people understand that anti-social behaviour is about community and not about rights the better, but I still see people confusing the two. Yes you've got a right to be rude, you've also got a right to blather on for two hours about Dragonball Z. Both behaviours will leave adults concluding that you're not capable of mature discussion. And if you and your mates establish a norm of anti-social behaviour, you will neatly exclude large portions of the population including most women, most children and most men over 30.

If, on the other hand, you want an intelligent conversation about tech and startups with the largest number of intelligent people, I suggest that we should all talk a bit more like Paul Graham and a bit less like a 14-year old playing Call of Duty (or, for that matter, Linus Torvalds)

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#114

Post by Udo »

danilocampos wrote: post #99
Udo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes we're not going to worship. It's not about worship. It's about civility and making an effort to write comments to a higher standard.

I write to my standard. You write to yours. We each get little buttons where people vote. That's the deal. I personally find Dave's attitude of self-entitlement to be very toxic. Coming first doesn't elevate you above reproach or scrutiny. Success and progress require questioning and even defying authority. I'm incredibly distrustful of anyone who would discourage that. So he's going to demand people be impressed – a…

> I write to my standard. You write to yours. We each get little buttons where people vote. That's the deal.

But that's also the problem. HN has a way of rewarding toxic comments. I particularly notice this in drive-by-comments where presumably-long-time users create a new account just to make a flame post. Turns out, this kind of cloak and dagger isn't even needed most of the time, because you can see how they're getting rewarded for this.

Is that really the kind of community we want to be?

I'm far from saying your standard sucks, by the way. You can sometimes come across as very harsh, and so can I - but I don't think our comments were the lowest ones yesterday. Still, I must admit that in hindsight I wish I would have done better.

> So he's going to demand people be impressed – and I'm going to demand they think for themselves.

I didn't see it that way. I think what should be demanded is a more constructive discussion with less ad hominem attacks. Constructive doesn't mean worshipping or even praising, it means discussing based on merit and facts.

I also believe we could demand less pettiness of ourselves. For example, a minute ago someone just downvoted all the comments I made today. That may be a valid interaction, but it reeks of vindictiveness. It might have been more productive to invest that same effort into posting a dissenting opinion.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#115

Post by ionforce »

smacktoward wrote: post #41
Udo wrote: post #12

I'm very sorry it has come this far. It's easy to forget we have a tendency to make remarks about people online that we would never bring up in a personal conversation. I'm not excluding myself here, I too feel I'm sometimes harsher online than offline - and it sadly also happened in the Dave Winer thread yesterday. People can come across in a certain way through their writing that we would never attribute to them if…

"It's important to acknowledge that most commenters on HN do not behave that way, but some do and they are very loud." I think part of this is just the dynamics of community-moderated comments. In my experience, the way to get upvotes in any such forum (not just HN) is to express an opinion in the strongest terms you possibly can. "X is dead" gets upvotes. "X has some challenges to overcome, and it might" doesn't. Pe…

You fix it with heavy-handed moderation that actively punishes curtly written content.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#116

Post by dragonwriter »

probably_wrong wrote: post #52
DanBC wrote: post #21

Not sure if it's any consolation, but some people were downvoting personal insults, and in the few minutes I spent reading the thread some people were calling out personal insults as a bad thing, and asking people not to do it. More people need to downvote direct personal insults. The author is right that it's a problem.

I don't have a downvote button, probably because I'm new and I don't have enough karma. I wanted more than once to downvote insulting comments, but alas, I cannot. I can upvote, however, meaning that I have both the ability to insult in comments and upvote insults that agree with whatever I want to insult at the time. That seems like a recipe for abuse if/when the userbase increases unexpectedly by a large magnitude,…

The simple solution would be to weight votes (upvotes and downvotes) by a function of karma, so that the upvotes from lower-karma new users that can't yet downvote would be less powerful than downvotes from longer-established users.

(OTOH, that could have undesirable side effects, as it could, outside the domain of managing tone, result in a strong bias for older technologies and against new technologies, if it is the case that, on average, technical folks have a tendency to get attached to the technologies that were "hot" when they were establishing themselves and prone to seeing newer technologies as threats -- that's something I've seen enough to suspect it is a general, though far from universal, trend.)

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#117

Post by jonny_eh »

npsimons wrote: post #67
simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

EDIT: In the spirit of being less negative, I'm deleting my original comment. I still contend that Mauro was in the wrong, and refused to acknowledge or fix his mistake, but will agree that Linus probably could have handled it better.

Revoke his maintainer status and fix the problem? Then give him a second chance sometime later. I'm sure that verbal abuse, especially in public, isn't the only solution.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#118

Post by ikt »

FreeBird wrote: post #70
simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

That's nothing. Check these comments, anywhere else you would get summarily fired for emails like this. http://www.muktware.com/5276/linus-torvalds-secure-boot-supp... "Guys, this is not a dick-sucking contest. If you want to parse PE binaries, go right ahead. If Red Hat wants to deep-throat Microsoft, that's your issue..." What if that email was to a female kernel dev? What if a whizkid reads the kernel dev mailing…

> What if that email was to a female kernel dev?

Are you saying men can't suck dick?

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#119

Post by nivla »

quackerhacker wrote: post #74

First off, most of your guys on here know me now and my background with Google not being a good one, so I don't have a bias opinion. I think at least the devs at Google DO care and they take pride in their work (like every damn dev should). The problem that happens when your company (Google) services so many is that your voice isn't heard against the noise...(I think weev felt this with ATT). I didn't get a chance to…

>I didn't get a chance to read the comments on the Mayer article (feel free someone to reply a HN link).

Here you go: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5738455

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#120

Post by Uchikoma »

Dave is the victim?

"They assumed that I was being "egotistical" for thinking that Google ever cared what I thought, and arrogant that I think they should care what I think now."

As this might be about me, as I wrote "No, it's typical for your ego."

Several years ago I've sent Dave mails with ideas, which one of them he posted without attribution or credit to his blog. With some mistakes I've made included. In an ongoing mail discussion he credited himself, including the mistakes.

About personal attacks:

The way he handled Marissa on his blog:

"All I remember of it was there came a point in the conversation when Mayer had had enough. She just got up and left. I think the people remaining in the conference room were a little embarassed."

He has no problem making people look bad, especially if it helps getting attention. Getting push back he then follows up presenting himself as the victim. He has also no problem calling other peoples assholes

"Now I think there's a solution to letting the assholes control the conversation..."

in a piece about discussion culture.

Google for "Dave Winer" returns a lot of stories that are similar. Before accepting Daves view on this, I wish people would do some research into Dave Winer.

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