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NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

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Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#201

Post by bcgraham »

rayiner wrote: post #129
sliverstorm wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, AirBnB basically seems to be an exercise in converting externalities into profit.

Much of what we consider to be profitable, high-growth business is about taking advantage of market failures. E.g. the advertising industry that bankrolls the internet is basically about taking advantage of cognitive biases to get people to make irrational purchasing decisions. Part of the success of e-commerce is due to the heroic efforts of UPS, etc, in reducing the cost of shipping over the years to make e-tailing…

"Taking advantage of the difficulty of contract and regulatory enforcement" finds an equilibrium at some really sour places.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#202

Post by robrenaud »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #172
invisible wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it is OK for people to live there (health-wise) but not OK for people to stay there temporarily? I mean, if there are 200 people in a building and it burns down does it really matter if they were there temporarily or permanently? Bizarre. The only way justification I could see is that if it were not hygienic, there is a chance of a outbreak of a virus happening (but that is no different than the metro or a flea ma…

> * if there are 200 people in a building and it burns down does it really matter if they were there temporarily or permanently?* It absolutely matters, and your scenario is a very serious one. Permanent residents know where the fire exits are, and which hallways are dead-ends. Temporary residents may not even be aware which windows open onto a fire escape.

Given that deaths by fire in NYC were in a record low in 2012, when AirBNB rentals in NYC were presumably at a record high, maybe the lack of fire regulations aren't actually that big a risk.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/nyregion/58-fire-deaths-in...

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#203

Post by willbill »

cletus wrote: post #62

I've had this argument with several people. Their position is that "it's my house/apartment, I should be able to do what I want with it" (even when renting they use this argument). My argument is that this is not and has never been true. You can't, for example, run a tannery in your apartment. What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. An endless…

One of the main problems I have with it is that in New York, I know of people who are doing a taking account AirBnb rates when calculating a break even for their sublets/extra rooms. This will push rents up in the city and ultimately not help a lot of the actual residents.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#204

Post by ahallock »

dragonwriter wrote: post #193
baddox wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't, for example, run a tannery in your apartment. I would prefer that you could, in the (perhaps unlikely) scenario that it was allowed by the terms of your rental agreement. If it's your own property, go right ahead. > What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. Many residents would probably agree, and if enough agree, then there's no re…

> I live in San Francisco, where airbnb is legal (as far as I know) Its generally not (its illegal in San Francisco to rent a unit for less than thirty days in a residential building with more than four units.) New York and San Francisco are the two US locations that I've seen the most news coverage for AirBnB's legal issues in. > yet my property owner explicitly prohibits "short term subleasing," effectively banning…

So because there is dependence on some monopolistic entity for contract disputes (there really shouldn't be), then that gives justification for that entity to intrude on voluntary actions? Seems like a logical fallacy to me. How about we let people transact peacefully and deal with the problems on a case-by-case basis instead of lumping everyone under the same law that allows no room for exploration.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#205

Post by cousin_it »

greghinch wrote: post #141
Diamons wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there has to be a rational argument against AirBnB. I could create a business telling people that I'll tell you how to get rich, charge them $10,000 and then tell them "Work hard and look for opportunity." and you could say that's horrible and whatever else but there's no rational argument against it. Living standards isn't something you can rationally argue. I don't care about visitors passing through…

> I don't think there has to be a rational argument against AirBnB. You may not think so, but I certainly hope laws are made by rational arguments.

I think I prefer the system where each voter has one vote to spend on whatever they please, without having to justify their desires to others...

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#206

Post by ahallock »

nathanstitt wrote: post #127
baddox wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't, for example, run a tannery in your apartment. I would prefer that you could, in the (perhaps unlikely) scenario that it was allowed by the terms of your rental agreement. If it's your own property, go right ahead. > What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. Many residents would probably agree, and if enough agree, then there's no re…

You cannot be serious. Just because you happen to own the property does not give you absolute rights. What you are arguing against is called zoning and the legality of that is very well settled. The tannery example is pretty apt here - what right do you have to run a foul smelling eyesore right beside the property where I'm attempting to raise a family?

That should really depend on the contracts and negotiations between property owners, tenants, etc. Maybe you don't mind living next to that "eyesore" because it's much cheaper and you can afford private schooling for your children. Everything is a cost/benefit, and people may be willing to sacrifice one thing for another, so have a little empathy.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#207

Post by bhb916 »

dev_jim wrote: post #161
durango wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you forced to pay $300/night in Manhattan at the W hotel, Atlas Shrugged. Not a AR fan btw, just saying both sides of the fence have their pros and cons. I'd place higher value on an apartment complex that explicitly did not allow short-term renting within their contract. The other problem is... what's the difference between me using AirBNB and me knowing a friend who let me stayed at his place for 6 days and I…

> When you forced to pay $300/night in Manhattan at the W hotel, Atlas Shrugged. No one is "forcing" you to spend $300/night in Manhattan for a hotel. You should read that book again because you are also not using "Atlas Shrugged" in a meaningful context. > Not a AR fan btw, just saying both sides of the fence have their pros and cons. I'd place higher value on an apartment complex that explicitly did not allow short…

The only difference that matters between friendly exchanges (cooking and room/board) and AirBnB or underground restaurants is that one set of actions threaten the existing power brokers who have the ear of City Hall. No one blinks when you disrupt file sharing or social networking, but disrupt automotive, taxis, or hotels (for example) and you're in a world of legal hurt. I fully understand that these zoning laws that AirBNB is running afoul of have existed for some time, but, as others pointed out, there are plenty of private, non-coercive ways to solve this same problem. They were codified into law because some powerful incumbent business sought to benefit financially from it.

The other differences between these different transactions, while perfectly valid distinctions, are simply ex post rationalizations made by those who support the entity in power (in this case city hall).

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#208

Post by nathanstitt »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #173
nathanstitt wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot be serious. Just because you happen to own the property does not give you absolute rights. What you are arguing against is called zoning and the legality of that is very well settled. The tannery example is pretty apt here - what right do you have to run a foul smelling eyesore right beside the property where I'm attempting to raise a family?

> what right do you have to run a foul smelling eyesore right beside the property where I'm attempting to raise a family? He has every right to do this. Why do you assume that your family is more important than his tannery? The regulations against things like tannery in an apartment are only there so that you can, when e.g. choosing a place to raise your family, find a place that will suit your requirements. It's lik…

As HarryHirsch says, no he absolutely does not have that right. Zoning is far from a new invention, it's been around since the industrial revolution at least.

I'm honestly shocked that people apparently would want to live in the kind of an environment where at any second the property next door could be turned into a tannery. How could anyone have confidence in their property's value in a society where that was allowed?

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#209

Post by amorphid »

I love AirBNB for finding a place to stay. Here are thoughts on how I might feel in other roles:

* landlord: I'd have an issue with a high volume of non-tenants coming in and out of my building without permission.

* hotel operator: I'd rather the supply of hotel rooms be limited. The fewer rooms, the more demand for my rooms!

* insurance company: guest of AirBNB guest does something bad and the cost of dealing with it is high. What a mess.

* mayor: publicly I'm against it because hotels fund my election campaigns. Privately, I stay in AirBNB rooms while in vacation because civil service doesn't pay much (albeit it wouldn't surprise to find mayors are rarely broke)

* neighbor: there's too much noise coming from that place down the hall. They are rude and have no vested interest in being nice because they don't live here.

AirBNB is a fabulous service to use and I understand why it has opponents.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#210

Post by Aloisius »

tomkarlo wrote: post #195
gknoy wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that the hosts still have to pay income tax, if they are getting paid money for having someone stay in their house.

They're supposed to. How many do you think actually are?

Probably about the same percent as individuals who rent out their apartment long-term?
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