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U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#131

Post by 3pt14159 »

mullingitover wrote: post #96
3pt14159 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chile is an interesting example because it is one of very few areas where US action saved a large number of people from death. In case it matters, I'm against interventionism and I'm Canadian, but I've visited both Cuba and Chile and even the nicest parts of Cuba are worse than the sketchy port city of Chile. If I were Chilean I wouldn't be outraged. And many of the Chileans that I talked to were not. I think there a…

> If I were Chilean I wouldn't be outraged. I did some light reading on this topic. How exactly were a large number of people saved from death? Did you misspeak? Because from what I've read, the overthrow of Chile's elected government actually resulted in a large number of people dying/being tortured/'disappearing'. I'm guessing the Chileans who you spoke to weren't from that group.

Thousands died, but if you compare the numbers against the numbers that died under communism in Cuba, Russia, China, East Germany and various countries in Africa it can be used as a convincing example of ends-justify-the-means foreign interventionism.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#132

Post by PavlovsCat »

angersock wrote: post #57
speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Now, you can hardly judge a country on one or two acts of unrelated political activism abroad... :P More seriously, it's complex--painting it in the simplest broad strokes of "The US only cares about corporations" is unfair. The US is not the US; it's a combination of local, state, and federal governments and bureaucracies. There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how t…

There's almost certainly near no magical evil council

Uh... nice strawman?

the misguided actions and interactions of generally well-meaning people

Have you read "War Is A Racket"? And what big corporation are you the CEO of, or what public office did you hold for how long, so that you would even know what the priorities at top levels are? Are you, for example, telling me the Bush administration was genuinely worried about Hussein having WMD? Could you say that with a straight face?

And are you denying that quite a bunch of those individuals aren't generally doing individual actions for their own benefit? Eichmann was "just scared of loosing his job", too, so where exactly do we draw the line, how is that not just an euphemism you could apply to anything, how does this not apply to China or North Korea? It's just the son of a dictator afraid of loosing his job, his privilege, so he plays it the best way he knows how. And if you were born in China, you would make damn sure to do the right thing, too, which would be to join the communist party and do whatever you need to put food on your family. Who is anyone to judge a culture that is older than dirt, right?

Okay, so let's not judge people for what they do, nobody is without sin, so no stone throwing. Point taken. But can we still call out that they do things that, spoken about plainly without euphemisms, are generally agreed on to be bad and yes, even evil; and that others fall for them? Instead of hand waving the instant it is even brought up?

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#133

Post by 3pt14159 »

cema wrote: post #100
3pt14159 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chile is an interesting example because it is one of very few areas where US action saved a large number of people from death. In case it matters, I'm against interventionism and I'm Canadian, but I've visited both Cuba and Chile and even the nicest parts of Cuba are worse than the sketchy port city of Chile. If I were Chilean I wouldn't be outraged. And many of the Chileans that I talked to were not. I think there a…

Intervention in Chile was wrong, but it can also be used by neocons Why neocons specifically?

Because as a group neocons are the ones that are most ideologically behind global interventionism.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#134

Post by DamnYuppie »

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Many Americans have not real knowledge of what their nation looks like from the exterior. Yet it is rapidly becoming apparent to many that we are being manipulated and controlled and that those we "voted for" are not abiding by their oaths and have no intention of supporting the constitution and will do whatever they can to stay in power.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#135

Post by DamnYuppie »

beedogs wrote: post #73
hga wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Second amendment's been gone for a while. " Not even close. True if you live in one of 10 very bad states, two of which oddly are shall issue concealed carry ones that just went very bad (Connecticut and Colorado), but continuing that concealed carry theme, i.e. the "bear" in "the right to keep and bear arms" (RKBA), there's been a nationwide sweep of shall issue, starting in Florida in 1987 and ending with Iowa an…

> since it's the ultimate check on an out of control government. Realistically, a bunch of pea-shooters stand no chance against the US military. This holds true whether it's Americans or hired sub-Saharan mercenaries driving the tanks.

Realistically our army isn't sporting the greatest record against "pea-shooters" the world over. They do good for quick and dirty but they have not held out for a prolong period of time. Add to that they will be fighting where their family and home will be in the line of fire.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#136

Post by DamnYuppie »

jlgreco wrote: post #68
angersock wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because as a foreign national you'll be so much more protected from the US. Don't be daft.

When we have a situation where we are afraid to leave the system, as is our right, then the system can no longer be said to be just.

Well said. I hope more of our country men feel this way and vote accordingly.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#137

Post by DamnYuppie »

Flemlord wrote: post #25

Stellar. Maybe we'll finally see some real outrage in the media about the erosion of civil liberties in the US.

I sincerely hope we do, yet I fear we won't as the media is basically a bunch of whimpering liberals with no desire to ask the hard questions.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#138

Post by PavlovsCat »

jlgreco wrote: post #68
angersock wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because as a foreign national you'll be so much more protected from the US. Don't be daft.

When we have a situation where we are afraid to leave the system, as is our right, then the system can no longer be said to be just.

Which is a great reason to change it. Which in turn can not achieved by anyone as easily as American citizens.

If all people leave who disagree with, say, a police(ish) state and aggressive wars, +and+ are able to leave, then guess who remains? People who can't leave for one reason or another, and, uhhmm, the rest. And it's not like economical strain ever nipped fascist tendencies in the bud, to the contrary.

Think of a nuclear reactor, and the cooling elements saying "it's getting too warm in here, let's split". I can understand that when it gets really really bad, but right now, I dare say it would only make it worse. You need to stand up, not run away. If America falls, the rest of the world is pretty much caught between whatever it morphs into, Russia and China. So unless it gets bad enough so you want to move to either of those countries, please reconsider..

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#139

Post by yareally »

greatzebu wrote: post #93
madaxe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the Iranian revolution was right? The installation of countless dictators was right? Guantanamo is right? Torture is right? The US's moral compass was thrown overboard decades ago.

The moral compass that led us to slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans, and Japanese internment camps? The idea that the USA was formerly moral but has given it up lately isn't really supported by history.

Sadly, a large number people have a very short scope of history that only extends to about their lifetime + ~50 years before (with that the range of the scope quickly dissipating when it no longer relates to their own country's history). I would always shake my head in disappointment at school when friends and fellow students complained about why they needed to learn history. One cannot understand the present in the clearest possible manner without first understanding the past. While it's perfectly fine to not find history interesting, voicing opinions without the supplementary historical knowledge may lead to appearing ignorant of how certain events came to be. It's like trying to program without knowing things like big O notation and how specific types of collections work.

Failure to learn from the past leads to comments such as the United states was once a "pure/nobel, innocent country" instead of like almost every country that ever existed--an amorphous conglomerate of both well intentioned ideas/movements/people as well as those that were less honorable. While reaching out in an attempt to do good, a country may at the same time push out in an equally misguided/naive or negative direction, failing to see the consequences of their actions until it's too late.

Like every country, the US has its malicious entities. However, no one (except maybe the truly sadistic) thinks of themselves as being evil. Even those that we would universally consider malevolent probably justify their actions somehow for their own motivations or sanity. Some humans, especially those that feel they're in a situation they cannot change, have an odd way at times of making even the most despicable of actions seem justifiable within their conscience. Even the worst of Nazis (Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler included) had families they claimed (term used loosely) to have loved.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#140

Post by PavlovsCat »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #136
jlgreco wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we have a situation where we are afraid to leave the system, as is our right, then the system can no longer be said to be just.

Well said. I hope more of our country men feel this way and vote accordingly.

You don't get to vote, you get to choose among several pre-selected candidates. Or maybe you could say the two parties vote for you, and they sure as fuck aren't looking for your input on that. To achieve critical mass for substantial change requires more than voting.
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