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U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#71

Post by jellicle »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #22

So inside of just a few days, we have political opposition groups targeted for audits -- including questions about donors and volunteers -- and surveillance of the press. The easier we make it for some analyst in FBI headquarters to determine everywhere a potential terrorist cell has been, the easier we make it for some other analyst to conduct political spying and harassment like the world has never seen before. You…

> we have political opposition groups targeted for audits

What happened was the IRS decided to ask extra questions for groups attempting to register as charities but suspected to be engaged in political activities. If, as you say, they were "political opposition groups" then the IRS was completely correct in reviewing their applications; they didn't qualify to be charities.

Why do "political opposition groups" deserve special tax status? Why shouldn't the IRS enforce the law?

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#72

Post by metaphorm »

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

the United States federal government often does shitty things in the name of national security. the U.S. foreign policy has been pretty nasty over the years as well.

HOW-FUCKING-EVER...you really ought to be careful to make a distinction between those specific policies and practices and the rest of the United States as a whole. We have 300+ million people and we don't all agree with this stuff in lockstep with the factions within the federal government that do it. The fact that you're reading an article in The New York Times (the "paper of record" in the U.S.) that is calling out bad behavior of the government ought to give you a clue that you're painting with too broad of a brush.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#73

Post by beedogs »

hga wrote: post #9
sneak wrote: post #5

Second amendment's been gone for a while. Fifth and fourteenth haven't been seen in a minute, either. Peaceable assembly's overrated anyway. (RNC '04) How much of the first needs to be gone until it's enough to recognize that the USA is no longer a free society? How many whistleblowers, security researchers, and cryptographers need to be thrown in prison on bullshit trumped-up charges? How many hunger-striking politi…

" Second amendment's been gone for a while. " Not even close. True if you live in one of 10 very bad states, two of which oddly are shall issue concealed carry ones that just went very bad (Connecticut and Colorado), but continuing that concealed carry theme, i.e. the "bear" in "the right to keep and bear arms" (RKBA), there's been a nationwide sweep of shall issue, starting in Florida in 1987 and ending with Iowa an…

> since it's the ultimate check on an out of control government.

Realistically, a bunch of pea-shooters stand no chance against the US military. This holds true whether it's Americans or hired sub-Saharan mercenaries driving the tanks.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#74

Post by metaphorm »

jellicle wrote: post #71
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #22

So inside of just a few days, we have political opposition groups targeted for audits -- including questions about donors and volunteers -- and surveillance of the press. The easier we make it for some analyst in FBI headquarters to determine everywhere a potential terrorist cell has been, the easier we make it for some other analyst to conduct political spying and harassment like the world has never seen before. You…

> we have political opposition groups targeted for audits What happened was the IRS decided to ask extra questions for groups attempting to register as charities but suspected to be engaged in political activities. If, as you say, they were "political opposition groups" then the IRS was completely correct in reviewing their applications; they didn't qualify to be charities. Why do "political opposition groups" deserv…

the IRS should enforce the law. they should enforce it equally. It appears as if they were a bit too selective. Their reasons for auditing were well justified, but they aimed those audits at a very specific group of organizations.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#75

Post by hga »

MartinCron wrote: post #35
hga wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really should check your facts before simply repeating the current party line. The acknowledged scope of the targeted investigations is so wildly beyond "anti-tax activists" the mind boggles. And see also e.g. Z Street's allegations about being questioned WRT to its views et. al. of Israel.

simply repeating the current party line No, the party line is that that targeting some groups is "Outrageous". I'm taking the unpopular contrarian position that maybe some organizations are more prone to be compliant with tax laws than others.

Echoing gyardley and knowtheory, this is not even a particularly partisan issue. Most of these groups represent existential threats to the national Republican party and its "establishment" members, such as ex-Senator Lugar, who is now spending more time with his family after getting primaried in 2012.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#76

Post by hga »

jellicle wrote: post #71
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #22

So inside of just a few days, we have political opposition groups targeted for audits -- including questions about donors and volunteers -- and surveillance of the press. The easier we make it for some analyst in FBI headquarters to determine everywhere a potential terrorist cell has been, the easier we make it for some other analyst to conduct political spying and harassment like the world has never seen before. You…

> we have political opposition groups targeted for audits What happened was the IRS decided to ask extra questions for groups attempting to register as charities but suspected to be engaged in political activities. If, as you say, they were "political opposition groups" then the IRS was completely correct in reviewing their applications; they didn't qualify to be charities. Why do "political opposition groups" deserv…

Non-profits, not charities; many of the 27 types of 501(c) organizations are not charities. Here we're talking about 501(c)(4) groups, which are explicitly allowed to engage in politics, with limits. See this for more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5698931

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#78

Post by angersock »

uptown wrote: post #67
angersock wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, you can hardly judge a country on one or two acts of unrelated political activism abroad... :P More seriously, it's complex--painting it in the simplest broad strokes of "The US only cares about corporations" is unfair. The US is not the US; it's a combination of local, state, and federal governments and bureaucracies. There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how t…

"instead, we have the misguided actions and interactions of generally well-meaning people that are so segregated from the big picture and scared of losing their jobs that they make mistakes which snowball." That's a pretty generous supposition ... in regard to both intent and competency.

I'd much rather assume derpiness than malice.

If we assume malice, well, that puts all kinds of interesting moral burdens on us, right? Better to assume agents mean well than that they are actively hostile--it is much easier to reason about.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#80

Post by _account »

salimmadjd wrote: post #10

This is so strange! When was a last time AP released anything that wasn't more than government PR. On many important issues like lead up to Iraq war and now to a potential Iran war, AP has just reported what's been expected of them. My thought is the wiretap was set to catch potential whistleblowers than to do anything with reporters or AP itself.

It's not strange at all. If the AP's sources just disappeared, the word would be out to any future sources/marks that the AP gives up sources...but if the big bad government did this rare, but effective overreach...the spooks can still terminate the leak and the AP has plausible denial.

The CIA wants to maintain the AP's ability to lure in more leaks in the future.

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