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Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

penny-arcade.com

141–150 of 177 posts

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The real problem however is not that they are immature when they get in, but that too often they get out once they reach maturity, > This is pretty spot-on. I've studiously avoided working for EA (they almost had me once, but I said no when they pulled a bait-and-switch on the project that convinced me to interview to begin with), but I've been in the industry for 20+ years, mostly working for smaller companies or…

> I've studiously avoided working for EA For what it's worth, I found work-life balance increased steadily during my tenure at EA. The whole ea_spouse thing brought a lot of attention to problems. It still wasn't great, but it was better than when I started. When I left EA, I was working 40 hours a week reliably. This was in large part, though, because that was a high priority for me and I moved off game teams and on…

>When I left EA, I was working 40 hours a week reliably.

My last gig had me working 30-35 hours a week reliably. And I made way more than EA was offering.

>This was in large part, though, because that was a high priority for me and I moved off game teams and onto shared tech stuff because it was less high-pressure, even though that wasn't ideal for my career.

The one time I worked for a big company (well, a studio owned by Activision -- the studio itself wasn't that big) I did tools as well, similarly to avoid working in the critical path of a game Gold Master release.

That was the worst fit for me of any job I've ever had. Not because it was tools, but for more complex reasons...mostly, I guess, because the tasks they assigned me didn't play to my strengths.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#142

I was a game programmer at EA for eight years. > The real problem however is not that they are immature when they get in, but that too often they get out once they reach maturity, This is pretty spot-on. One of the main reasons I left the industry was because I got tired of it being perpetual amateur hour. I felt like I didn't know much and yet I often knew more than those around me. I worked on one game where more t…

I was a game programmer at EA for eight years.

Six years here.

This is pretty spot-on. One of the main reasons I left the industry was because I got tired of it being perpetual amateur hour. I felt like I didn't know much and yet I often knew more than those around me. I worked on one game where more than 50% of the engineers had never shipped a game before. Those that had spent all of their time fire-fighting the messes created by the energetic yet clueless brigade of novices.

I agree completely. I still remember the HR presentation where they talked about how long most of the developers at our studio had been with the company. I had only been there 6 years and I was somehow one of the 10% most senior people at the studio.

At one point our studio (EA Burnaby) was run by a nice fellow named Jonathan Schappert who later went on to be CEO at Zynga. I'm told that his vision for the studio was for some small percentage (like around 5%) of the programmers to be senior engineers - SE3's or better - and for the rest of the programmers to be kids straight out of school. You can imagine how this 'pyramid of excellence' worked out in practice.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#143
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't they network a bit and create their own design shop? Given that they're already all in one place.

Because that requires capital, and no one is going to fund interns , skilled though they may be.

In time of the internets I can't imagine a design shop hard to bootstrap. On internet nobody knows you're an intern.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most trendy, fashionable and 'glamorous' jobs are like this. Which is why the smart thing to do is to go for the most unfashionable job (or market, if you're starting a business) you can find that provides a product that your customers simply can't live without. You just don't want to be selling an elastic product, and you don't want to be in an industry where there's supply-side competition from people who are doi…

> Which is why the smart thing to do is to go for the most unfashionable job That assumes that you don't get any value out of having a glamorous job. Sure, there are tons of people that want to be game developers. Why? Because a lot of things about being a game developer are awesome! You get a laid-back working environment, you get to work with artists and other exciting, creative people, the work is technically chal…

Laid back working environments?

lol 'yea you can dress however you want'. Yea, they bloody well should let you when you're in the office 80+ hours a week.

I'll never go back to games - in the 6 years I've been in the games industry, I've worked with some really smart and fun people, but management (and on the whole, a lot of 'game designers') generally suck and have no idea what they're talking about. That includes a lot of the veterans - they got famous on a single game idea, way way way back and are carried by that.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#145
post #11

Using "white" as a casual negative adjective is weak. I can respect non-whites using it as a term of anger or hatred. We're all big boys. But seeing it used as a term of self-hatred leaves me feeling more than a little disgusted.

They're not even white. Japanese and Korean games are also very popular.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is why the smart thing to do is to go for the most unfashionable job That assumes that you don't get any value out of having a glamorous job. Sure, there are tons of people that want to be game developers. Why? Because a lot of things about being a game developer are awesome! You get a laid-back working environment, you get to work with artists and other exciting, creative people, the work is technically chal…

> That assumes that you don't get any value out of having a glamorous job. The only value you get out of having a "glamorous job" is that other people think you have a glamorous job. Glamour has to do with perception , not reality. > Sure, there are tons of people that want to be game developers. Why? Because a lot of things about being a game developer are awesome! Wrong. They want to be game developers because they…

I work in a related industry (film) and you're mostly wrong here. The work itself is what keeps people in the industry, and the work is genuinely more fun than other jobs I've had for a number of reasons.

- You're expected to always be on the absolute cutting edge in an extremely fast moving area, computer graphics.

- The ultimate goal of the projects is to make images that are so appealing, people will pay money to see them projected on a screen. This is fun.

- It requires extremely high levels of creative and technical proficiency, and to do really well ideally you'll have components of both.

- You work with people who are extremely passionate about what they do, and not what it might pay them. This does actually make a difference.

Now there are definitely significant down sides, but it's not that people are brainwashed into thinking they enjoy their work.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#147
post #34
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"C/C++/AI/Shaders/Animation" is "a lot" to learn in a career?

No, I mentioned in a day. Sometimes you mess with all that kind of code in a day (I mentioned C and C++ as base)

Do you need to have relevant background before you can touch that code? How does that work?

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#148
As a game developer I work on average 38 hours a week, and have never done more than 70 in a week. I come in for weekends once or twice near the end of a project and I've never pulled an all-nighter. From what I've seen this is also the case for most other programmers where I've worked, as most have families or actual lives.

I've seen high-employee turnover before, and it's generally down to the company demanding too much overtime or being disgustingly underpaid. There's plenty of companies about now that understand overtime doesn't = productivity.

>Your average industry professional is a 31 year old white man with one to three years of experience

I've got no idea how true this is, but in my experience it's around 3-6 years average, though I've never worked for an indie or mega-studio, and I'm based in the UK.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#149
post #147
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I mentioned in a day. Sometimes you mess with all that kind of code in a day (I mentioned C and C++ as base)

Do you need to have relevant background before you can touch that code? How does that work?

My background has always been Game AI so that was the part I worked 90% of the time. The thing about games is usually, it is hard to just remain on the same general code. AI is related to movement, which is related to collision detection and animation, and sometimes you have to go through the rabbit hole deeper and deeper to either try and find a bug or why code doesn't work, or to make something work like you want.

In smaller companies, most of the time, Gameplay programmer = Just do whatever it needs to be done, including shaders, AI, sound, etc.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#150

Perhaps it's a bit offtopic, but as I have not found myself a good pet language that I'd truly make my favourite yet, being a 21-year old university student, is there any other reasons of studying, learning C++ as an all-around language, than being in the game industry? The dream of working for a company like Valve has pushed me into learning C++, but I am not so sure anymore whether that is a good choice due to both…

C++ has plenty of uses outside games and it's still one of the most demanded languages, although here on HN most people seem to work on web development and rarely need C++.

The truth is, if you don't like C++, you won't like working on an industry that relies heavily on it (however, not every game is done in C++, and certainly few games use it exclusively), so in that case it may be a good idea to go for another industry where you feel more comfortable. If you like C++, of course, keep using it, and don't worry about finding a C++ job, they're still very common.

The best advice, and the one you'll read around here most often, is: don't learn a single language. It's OK that you specialize in C++ (so do I), but never put all your eggs on a single basket. From C++ you can very easily go to C, Java and C#, which also provide a lot of jobs, and outside of the C family there is a whole universe of languages you should always be aware of.

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