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Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

penny-arcade.com

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Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some perspective: I had a good 5 years, I had a lot of fun, and I don't regret it. Whilst I will complain strongly about a lot of the things wrong in the industry, the truth is that I made a good wage (compared to most of my non software-developer friends), got to do some cool stuff, and had a good time doing it. For the most part, the industry is getting better and it's not near the level it used to be. If you g…

Thanks for the advice! Career planning is pretty stressful for me and it's great to hear from someone in the industry. I'll keep everything you said in mind when starting out.

Just ping me if you want more info, my email is in my profile.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#42
post #11

Using "white" as a casual negative adjective is weak. I can respect non-whites using it as a term of anger or hatred. We're all big boys. But seeing it used as a term of self-hatred leaves me feeling more than a little disgusted.

Yeah, agreed, it was not clear why calling out White was useful in the title. "Youth" and "maleness" were relevant. Younger people tend to be more "desperate" and willing to trade time and health to "make it" in their career of choice. They are also less likely to have young children. Males tend to be more passionate about the gaming industry. But what is it about White people that makes them more likely to go into t…

FWIW my friends who have worked in the games industry worked with a lot of chinese and indian co-workers.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#43
This article is true to a T.

An avid gamer all my life, I joined a game company to work on a gamer centric non-gaming project. Without saying much about my time there, it culminated upon completion with the entire team being laid off, with only the lowest paid hardest working "white childless males" being kept on because they fit the founder's expectations of ideal workers.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can respect non-whites using it as a term of anger or hatred. Did you just say it's respectable to hate on white people?

To clear up any misunderstanding: Is it ever acceptable to have feelings of anger and hatred? Yes, surely. There are situations in life that demand that response. Are whites the only acceptable target? Surely not.

> Is it ever acceptable to have feelings of anger and hatred? Yes, surely. There are situations in life that demand that response. Are whites the only acceptable target? Surely not.

Not to accuse you of any impropriety, but that was the most artful dodge I've ever seen outside of a presidential debate.

Please answer the question as asked. As far as I'm concerned, anger and hatred on a racial basis is rarely, if ever justified.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#45
post #3

As a 30-year old childless white man who left the games industry after a short 8 months in order to get married and spend time with my spouse, I can tell you that the assessment is fairly spot on. If you weren't putting in 12 hours daily, something was wrong with you and it was 'bad for team morale'. I was also pretty horribly underpaid, as evidenced by raising my salary over 200% by leaving. Seems to me the 'white'…

Not really. That kind of environment leads to a lot of prejudiced thinking. You see it happen in the rest of tech, too: people who have the screws twisted on them, willingly or not, cope one way or another... and most people cope by reinforcing their self-esteem with delusions of superiority. That's one reason why we have religious wars over operating systems and programming languages and tool sets that you don't see…

The reason other engineering cultures don't have religious wars is because they have been around for longer than computer and software engineering have. As a result, they are dominated by old, experienced industry veterans who have learned long ago the value of using the right tool for the job.

In contrast, software especially has a lot of new, young blood (average age in software is significantly lower), and one thing young people love doing is claiming superiority over each other. And the best way of doing this is via religious wars about operating systems, programming languages, etc.

Whenever I hear someone claim "such and such programming language is the best!!!" they are either 25, or they are older but they hang out with 25 year olds and their maturity has regressed to that level.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#46
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a software engineering student about to start an internship(Paid, 4 months) at a major game studio. I am considering applying for a job once I complete the internship if everything goes well. I would like to see if the studio where I will work has a decent workflow. If not I would be willing to tough it out as a generalist programmer while trying to apply to other jobs that interest me in another industry. The id…

Keep in mind that your job might look bad in your resume. Given the bad rep gaming companies have, only people that are inexperienced/not that good, or clueless go to the industry. I know you have to start your career somewhere, but keep that in mind.

Uh, as a developer of 13 years who has never been in the gaming industry... I question your generalization. I have never seen or heard of anyone saying game programmers are inferior or clueless in my professional career. Granted, I work in Boston, so things may be different here, but it's really not a characterization I at all recognize.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#47
So, here's my honest-to-god question.

When I was last interviewing for programming jobs in New York, only one of the places I interviewed at (and I looked at a lot of companies) wanted people working more than 40 hours a week, on a regular basis (they were a startup with a fixed runway). All the other places (a mix of established companies and startups) made it very clear that work-life balance is important to them, and that normal workweeks and generous vacation time was to be expected.

So I read these stories about people being asked to work 80+ hours a week, and I can't for the life of me figure out why anybody does this, when there are so many companies which don't ask for it. And it's not like the 80+ hour jobs pay any better, as far as I can tell.

What's going on here? Is it geographical? Industry-based? Do some programmers just not know any better?

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#48
I was a game programmer at EA for eight years.

> The real problem however is not that they are immature when they get in, but that too often they get out once they reach maturity,

This is pretty spot-on. One of the main reasons I left the industry was because I got tired of it being perpetual amateur hour. I felt like I didn't know much and yet I often knew more than those around me.

I worked on one game where more than 50% of the engineers had never shipped a game before. Those that had spent all of their time fire-fighting the messes created by the energetic yet clueless brigade of novices.

> Many companies want to own your work even when you’re off the clock. “Here at Nine Dots, we aren't using any non-concurrence agreements, so these personal projects can actually benefit them financially if they make something that is commercially viable,” Boucher-Vidal said.

This was also another major reason I left EA. I couldn't work on games in my free time. Meanwhile, the stuff I did at work didn't actually scratch that itch: it was either huge franchise games I couldn't care less about or technology stack stuff that wasn't an actual game. I spent more time feeling like I was "making games" when I didn't work at EA.

> Until there is evidence that other models will work, and that's going to take a hit game or two, very little with change, and the revolving door of young, white, childless men will continue to make our games.

I honestly don't believe this will significantly change. I compare the game industry to the music industry. In both, you have:

1. A product that people don't need to consume.

2. A product where consumers increasingly expect prices to be tiny or zero.

3. Hordes of young people who want to do it.

4. Work that is intrinsically satisfying for its own sake.

Push aside all of the bullshit and making games is crazy fun. Lots of people want to make them. Lots of people want to play them too, but they don't really want to shell out much cash to do so. I think the end result of this is that it's just a domain where it will be a young person's game and it's very hard to make a lot of money.

Yes, some companies will be able to make real money at it, but for every Rolling Stones, there's a thousand local independent bands playing dive bars that you've never heard of.

And that's OK. I was in one of those bands you've never heard of once. It was awesome. When I had kids, I gave it up, but I certainly don't regret it. Maybe we should think of making games the same way: a fun thing to spend a few years doing when you're young and have the time.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#49

So, here's my honest-to-god question. When I was last interviewing for programming jobs in New York, only one of the places I interviewed at (and I looked at a lot of companies) wanted people working more than 40 hours a week, on a regular basis (they were a startup with a fixed runway). All the other places (a mix of established companies and startups) made it very clear that work-life balance is important to them,…

When these people want to work on games, they want to work on games, not "at a programming job." You see phrases like "childhood dream" going around, and to people who spent their childhoods playing games, making games is much cooler than making any other kind of software.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#50

So, here's my honest-to-god question. When I was last interviewing for programming jobs in New York, only one of the places I interviewed at (and I looked at a lot of companies) wanted people working more than 40 hours a week, on a regular basis (they were a startup with a fixed runway). All the other places (a mix of established companies and startups) made it very clear that work-life balance is important to them,…

made it very clear that work-life balance is important to them, and that normal workweeks and generous vacation time was to be expected

What they tell you in the interview is very rarely what happens in real life. Every company says they have a dynamic environment where you work on interesting problems for 40 hours a week at above-market salary. The reality is often different.

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