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Gitmo Is Killing Me

nytimes.com

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Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#451

Post by tibbon »

dhimes wrote: post #425
tibbon wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that we can change that. But what we can do is hold ourselves to a higher standard of decency and treat people the way we'd want to be treated.

On average I think (hope?) we do. But be careful about bringing a knife to a gun fight.

The issue with Gitmo is that we're no treating others as we'd want to be treated. 10+ years with no proof/trial, simply because we've made up a new word "enemy combatant" to circumvent the Geneva Conventions... not exactly cool.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#452

Post by parfe »

sequoia wrote: post #400
parfe wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantana... Obama issued the order to close the prison his second full day in office. Congress then blocked any funds whatsoever from being used to close the prison. http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/111/senate/1/196 No, the president can't just release prisoners into Cuba because A) Cuba is a sovereign country and the US doesn't get to just deposit individ…

If this decision is so clearly and unequivocally not his to make, why did he promise to do it in the first place? Is he stupid or a liar? I don't think he's stupid.

Are you American?

A majority of Presidential campaign platforms are issues which also need Congressional approval. Tax Reform, healthcare, domestic policy, spending cuts, and budgets. Obama did what he said, but congress blocked him. He's neither stupid, nor a liar for that. Any more than he would have been lying if Congress blocked healthcare reform.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#453

Post by mirkules »

specialist wrote: post #447
mirkules wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For anyone who actually understands politics, the failure to close Gitmo was not Obama's fault." I disagree. For anyone that understands politics understands that things can get done by applying a significant political push. I think Obama symbolically tried, then threw his hands up in the air in defeat when he got some resistance from Congress. I assume this is because the political chips he would lose by pushing ha…

For anyone that understands politics understands that things can get done by applying a significant political push. Yes. What does that pressure look like? I've lobbied. A fair amount for an amateur. We had some small victories, but mostly lost ground. The victories we had were because we packed the hearings with warm bodies. Where are the people willing to pack the chambers over Gitmo? It absolutely should be closed…

I agree with you, people need to be motivated about closing Gitmo. People won't be motivated to do anything about it as long as everyone inside Gitmo is labeled a terrorist.

If Obama et al truly felt that closing Gitmo was a priority, the news would be packed day after day with stories from the prison, humanizing the prisoners, and introduction of one legislation measure after another, all to drum up support (just like gun control). But that just isn't happening, which makes me conclude it's a lack of effort for whatever reason.

In your experience, the ground that you did lose, was it because of lack of support? Could you have tried again and how? (I don't have any political experience, so I'm kind of curious)

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#454

Post by omegaham »

tibbon wrote: post #405
dhimes wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be sure you figure out how to enforce it first, especially for those who kidnap kids and turn them into suicide bombers (apparently they give them a 'magic amulet' which they tell the children will protect them from the blast). http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/10/20121014102...

I don't think that we can change that. But what we can do is hold ourselves to a higher standard of decency and treat people the way we'd want to be treated.

The problem is that our ROE is seen as an act of weakness, not compassion.

Our ROE says not to shoot unarmed kids. So, the enemy puts suicide vests on kids and sends them at us.

Our ROE says not to shoot people who aren't carrying a weapon. So, they shoot at us, drop their weapon, and walk to the next building to do it again.

Our ROE says not to blow up a house if there are civilians inside. So they take a family hostage and shoot at us from upstairs.

My attitude is that we use these rules as a courtesy. We didn't bomb hospitals in WW2 because those hospitals weren't being used as shelter for soldiers. We didn't bomb orphanages because they didn't have IED factories in their basements. Today's enemy does that, and then people get butthurt when we blow up the orphanage. Well, stop putting bomb factories under there!

Laws of war only apply when both sides agree to abide by them.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#455

Post by te_chris »

Nursie wrote: post #174
rmc wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$MY_COUNTRY Exceptionalism

I don't know of another country that has it quite so bad. I know of nowhere else in the western world where people fly flags or drape themselves in the flag with anything like the regularity of the US. It really sticks out compared to everywhere else I've been, and I've travelled to/in 30+ countries now.

Australia, believe it or not, is actually pretty bad in this regard. The amount of xenophobia disguised as "patriotism" is pretty eye opening (well at least for me). I haven't travelled through the USA though, but Australia definitely was a shock.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#456

Post by alan_cx »

facorreia wrote: post #178
hmottestad wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On days like these the US is Guantanamo Bay. The US is poverty and regular people without a home. The US is bad health care, as in only the rich can afford it. The US is drones, fired at civilians in the dead of night. The US is oil, as in that they want it all. The US is guns, like the ones likely to be pointed at you if you get robbed. The US is x-rays at the airport. And finally, the US is the land of the free.

This is not the kind of content I come to Hacker News for.

You just have.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#457

Post by alan_cx »

richardjordan wrote: post #3

The hypocrisy of the New York Times in printing this is shocking. The newspaper which did so much to whip up hysteria during the years of the Bush administration now trying to raise concerns about the inmates of Guantanamo is shockingly cynical. It's a shameful state of affairs that our political process is so broken we cannot deal with this situation in a civilized fashion, with investigations, trials and an end res…

Maybe because I am British I have a very, very low opinion of the media, newspapers in particular, but...

Welcome to the world of the media and press.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#458

Post by Pwnguinz »

tibbon wrote: post #451
dhimes wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On average I think (hope?) we do. But be careful about bringing a knife to a gun fight.

The issue with Gitmo is that we're no treating others as we'd want to be treated. 10+ years with no proof/trial, simply because we've made up a new word "enemy combatant" to circumvent the Geneva Conventions... not exactly cool.

A new word for "enemy combatant", you mean, right? i.e. "Terrorists"

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#459

Post by ucee054 »

berntb wrote: post #442
ucee054 wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breivik was a zionist nut job, there are many others out there that fit that classification, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League . Similarly, Tim McVeigh was a militia nut job, there are many others like him out there, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Republican_Army However, these are white people, so when they blow something up they are just "one lone crazy person". When 19 brown people bri…

Breivik was a single crazy -- not a set of organized terror groups with thousands of members (and hundreds of millions of dollars in finances) which regularly execute complex simultaneous bombings, etc, etc. That makes the existing alQ 2001 at least a million times larger problem than Breivik in his cell 2013. AGAIN , Breivik is only a member of a group in his own mind -- and in your mind. (I seriously wonder if ther…

You assert Breivik was a single crazy but you ignore the fact that his kahanist buddies in outfits like the JDL are well funded organized groups.

You also ignore that in terms of the domestic terror threat, according to the FBI organized jewish loons are a larger threat than yemeni moslem loons - and that jewish loons aren't being locked up indefinitely

http://forums.anandtech.com/archive/index.php/t-2135229.html

You also ignore that when the US was in a similar situation, during the McVeigh episode, the US did not respond towards the militiamen by locking them up without trial. They used normal law enforcement procedures. And McVeigh was not a lone wolf. That lot are organized and well funded

But if you didn't ignore these parallels, you'd be forced to see that there is an alternative called "the rule of law". And you wouldn't like that. You prefer the policy "lock up the towelheads and throw away the key".

And you call me a hatemonger.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#460

Post by gadders »

rmc wrote: post #223
hobolobo wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst internment was a pretty nasty thing, I don't think that what went on in British prisons is comparable to what goes on in Guatanamo Bay. The point was that whilst nowhere is perfectly just and or free, there is the perception that the USA promotes itself as being so.

The British didn't do forced feeding, but I'd hardly say it was great. As well as hunger strikes the prisoners also protested wearing prison uniforms. So the staff didn't empty their toilets. The prisoners smeared their feces on the walls. I'd recommend the film Hunger , it's a bit raw.

But, you know, on the upside, they were all convicted terrorists.

If they want to smear shit up the walls because they don't get Casual Friday then let them.

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