Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men • Hacker News Board

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#71

Post by Camillo » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:28 PM UTC

cobrausn wrote: post #3

As a 30-year old childless white man who left the games industry after a short 8 months in order to get married and spend time with my spouse, I can tell you that the assessment is fairly spot on. If you weren't putting in 12 hours daily, something was wrong with you and it was 'bad for team morale'. I was also pretty horribly underpaid, as evidenced by raising my salary over 200% by leaving. Seems to me the 'white'…

The factors explained in the article definitely have to do with most game developers being childless, male 30 year olds. They have nothing to do with race: I see no reason why a black or asian 30 year old childless man with a passion for games should be less likely to put in those insane hours than if he were white.

Why call out "white men" in the headline, then? This is actually a story about the importance of letting employees work reasonable hours and have a balanced life; the problem is that nobody cares about that - or at least, the PA Report thought nobody would. So they chose a headline that makes it look like a far more marketable story about sexism, racism and the tech industry. It's cheap, but it probably ends up bringing more links and traffic.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#72

Post by nathanfp » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:29 PM UTC

Would be really interesting to see what kinds of games/benefits occur in a company that changes gears and embraces more flexible work weeks bringing in older and more experienced workers.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#73

Post by star0zero » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:30 PM UTC

Another great piece on the same topic: http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/lucasarts-eulogy-...

Key quote? "If the cost of a fun game is a failed marriage, then it may be time to admit that the cost is too high." - agreed.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#74

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:34 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #48

I was a game programmer at EA for eight years. > The real problem however is not that they are immature when they get in, but that too often they get out once they reach maturity, This is pretty spot-on. One of the main reasons I left the industry was because I got tired of it being perpetual amateur hour. I felt like I didn't know much and yet I often knew more than those around me. I worked on one game where more t…

>> The real problem however is not that they are immature when they get in, but that too often they get out once they reach maturity,

> This is pretty spot-on.

I've studiously avoided working for EA (they almost had me once, but I said no when they pulled a bait-and-switch on the project that convinced me to interview to begin with), but I've been in the industry for 20+ years, mostly working for smaller companies or doing consulting.

I think that while most people (historically) have worked for big companies, that there's a new trend (Kickstarter/crowdfunding) that is making it possible for indie developers to compete, and more importantly, to make a reasonable income while they develop the game.

Granted, a lot of game Kickstarters fail, but then a lot of the people who put them on are not as qualified as they need to be to impress the public.

>I honestly don't believe this will significantly change. I compare the game industry to the music industry.

EXACTLY! And Kickstarter is democratizing the music industry as well! Heck, throw in the movie industry -- there were 17 Kickstarter-backed films at Sundance this year [1], and musicians are using Kickstarter (and digital distribution in general) to get away from the awful music labels that almost universally eat up their profits.

The biggest problem in games/music/movies is typically that you have to make them before you can sell them. All three industries are really hit-driven. If they don't strike the right chord when the product is released, then any money invested in production is lost. So the investors get very conservative about what they'll make, and the general quality goes down as they try to reduce costs in stupid ways (80+ hours a week etc.).

Crowdfunding turns this idea around completely, in that you can invest a small amount of time and money in trying to prove that your idea has legs, and if it does, then the product can be made with the money put in by your fans. If it doesn't, then you either fix your idea or start from scratch with the next idea.

And if none of your ideas work, then it's off to a different industry. The public has spoken.

I'm a game developer with a family and a social life. It can be done. [2]

[1] http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-funded-films-hea...

[2] I have yet myself to "hit the jackpot" with anything I've made; some of my time is spent doing consulting (I'm a programmer), where I make enough money to pay for the time I spend trying to make games. My burn rate is low (even with a family) in part because I left the Bay Area because this is what I want to do, and in order to do it I can't have a huge mortgage that forces me to have a day job that I can't quit. It's all about deciding what your priorities are and then acting on them.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#75

Post by pasquinelli » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:35 PM UTC

Aloisius wrote: post #51

Why do games require so many developers to work 20 hour days? Aren't most of games built on commercial engines that do most of the heavy lifting? I've been following the Doublefine guys and a lot of their development was put into making developer tools. I suppose I understand that, but when I hear of these 400 person teams building a game that takes 4 years to make, I'm honestly a little bewildered.

i can tell you the reason this happens at shitty, small developers making low budget games: designers.

i wouldn't presume to comment beyond that though.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#76

Post by Camillo » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:35 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #21

schoper wrote: post #11

Using "white" as a casual negative adjective is weak. I can respect non-whites using it as a term of anger or hatred. We're all big boys. But seeing it used as a term of self-hatred leaves me feeling more than a little disgusted.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily call it self-hatred, just as it's reasonable for many males to "hate" the male gender. I have serious issues with the social construct of gender, with its inculcation of aggression/subordination and bizarre attitudes, dress codes, etc. As a male, it's acceptable for me to "hate" maleness, and I think that's better than leaving only females to dismantle patriarchy. (Then again, in the sens…

Frankly, you sound very similar to those homosexuals with strongly traditional religious beliefs who try to purge themselves of their "twisted" part.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#77

Post by yalogin » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:37 PM UTC

Why is this just a game industry problem? I thought the whole valley has this problem. No?

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#78

Post by azakai » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:38 PM UTC

dicroce wrote: post #6

I really, truly, honestly believe that above 9 hours a day for an extended period of time actually ends up hurting your development efforts. You want developers who come into work and WORK. Not work a little, check a little HN, work a little, eat, check a little Reddit. Living at work forces coping mechanisms like this on you because you really only have a finite amount of creative attention.

> I really, truly, honestly believe that above 9 hours a day for an extended period of time actually ends up hurting your development efforts.

Maybe for a lot of people, but generalizations like that are never true for everybody. Different people have different amounts of time they can work without reducing productivity.

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#79

Post by hacker789 » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:45 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #21

schoper wrote: post #11

Using "white" as a casual negative adjective is weak. I can respect non-whites using it as a term of anger or hatred. We're all big boys. But seeing it used as a term of self-hatred leaves me feeling more than a little disgusted.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily call it self-hatred, just as it's reasonable for many males to "hate" the male gender. I have serious issues with the social construct of gender, with its inculcation of aggression/subordination and bizarre attitudes, dress codes, etc. As a male, it's acceptable for me to "hate" maleness, and I think that's better than leaving only females to dismantle patriarchy. (Then again, in the sens…

> It's fine to be a "race traitor" or gender traitor if yours dominates.

Your use of the word "dominates" is disingenuous. Let's imagine:

- - -

There exists a country in which 95% of all leadership in government and industry is male. There are a few women here and there, but for the most part, it's all men at the top. And at the top, people are pretty protected. They can generally get away with whatever they want, as is often the case.

This country has gender roles. Legally enforced gender roles. Women are viewed as more fragile caregivers. Men are viewed as sturdier providers. People at the top of society are pretty insulated, but for everyone else, these gender roles are a fact of life.

For a given crime, men are held to higher standards, and they are subjected to more brutal punishments. Men overwhelmingly find themselves in dangerous, thankless jobs.

Young men tend to work menial jobs, while young women tend to attend university.

Men do not live as long in this society. An overwhelming amount of public money and attention is spent on issues that primarily affect women.

And when a woman is perceived to be slighted, men and women are expected (and socially rewarded) for rushing to her aid. Men, being sturdier, are expected to fend for themselves.

- - -

Every well-off feminist man I've encountered would say that men in that society are not victims of sexism—they are simply victims of patriarchy.

Why on Earth would one call that system "patriarchy"? Aside from the top of society, men have it worse in this society. Men have it much worse. Why lump the men at the top in with the men at the bottom just because they all have penises?

Please realize that men can be sexist toward other men. Men can actively oppress other men on the basis of their gender. Men love competing with other men. Men love one-upping other men. Men love protecting women from those other, less civilized men. In short: Many men love oppressing other men.

For poorer, underprivileged men, it's incredibly marginalizing to hear a hyper-privileged man display his plumage and say it's alright to hate males, because males "dominate" society.

Unfortunately, repeating that mantra costs that hyper-privileged man nothing, yet it can potentially increase his social standing among other hyper-privileged men. So why wouldn't he?

Re: Why your games are made by childless, 31 year old white men

#80

Post by laeus » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:48 PM UTC

mrcharles wrote: post #62

I've been making games for nearly 15 years now. I am an early 30s white man. I am good at what I do, and can work anywhere I want, at this point in my career. I'm happily married, though we don't have (nor want) kids. I think the article is somewhat accurate, but I think it also pays short shrift to the improvements that are happening in games. One of the big things I've noticed in recent years is the amount of peopl…

This is extremely accurate based on my 11+ years of experience in the industry (across two studios). After some large AAA projects threatened people's relationships and overall happiness, many steps were taken to improve things, such as near-elimination of crunch and a high overall amount of respect for people's personal lives.

Note that I actually fit into the article's title as a 35 year old guy who doesn't plan on having kids. I will often spend a few extra hours polishing something up because I relish the end result and because it energizes me to come in to work every day. Sure, I could make "double the money for half the work" in some other industry, but I love making games and can't imagine sacrificing my passion to make some equation look better on paper. But I never pressure others to stay late, and from what I'm seeing these days, more and more studios are converting to a reasonable outlook on developer productivity and happiness.