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India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

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Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#191

Post by frankzinger »

Volpe wrote: post #181
kamaal wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>They were mostly unlucky in the lottery of life and born in poor circumstances. I never denied that. My whole point was, now that you are- What next? If you think you are happy with poverty then the story ends there. If you aren't then, the government can do little, Sorry but there are simply too many people in our country. The ordinary citizen will not and can't do anything about you. It will be your and your prob…

Your callousness and (what seems to be a) lack of empathy to those less fortunate is quite confronting to read.

Kamaal makes a valid point. He is simply stating things from the perspective of a poor person, and is describing reality. It would be a big mistake for a poor person to rely on somebody else to improve his situation.

The situation is very similar in South Africa. The poor makes up such a large proportion of the population that their situation cannot be improved significantly without major wealth redistribution (combined with a massive reduction in government corruption, preferably). Neither of these things are likely to happen (unless there is a revolution), so a poor person can only realisticly rely on himself to improve his situation.

Kamaal's point does not contradict the OP's. It's just a statement of reality from the perspective of the poor.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#192

Post by efuquen »

kamaal wrote: post #165
jlarocco wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sorry I refuse to believe in this victim hood mentality. We seriously need to get out of this 'Somebody needs to do it for me' ideology. Nobody is going to help you and shouldn't. Because frankly no matter whom you can speak to is going through a little battle of their own. > I am working hard here pushing 19 hour schedules to ensure I have a good life. Somebody else is all welcome to do so. I can understand if the…

I am an Indian and I have never been to any other country so far. But I wrote stands true for India. Caste system is a option, you can either associate yourself to it or leave it. This is true at least in modern day India and has been the the case for nearly 20 years now. You can easily ditch your caste, just like atheists ditch their religion. The fact is caste system offers a comfortable cushion of victim hood and…

In the US slavery was outlawed over 200 years ago and we still suffer with the socioeconomic consequences of it to this day, and for many days to come. To say the caste system was done away with 20 years ago and think it doesn't have a strong influence today I think is folly. I say that having no experience with India but knowing precedence strongly implies this to be the case.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#193

Post by hazov »

maddalab wrote: post #156
ashray wrote: post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

Quote from the article "Let me tell you another story: my neighbour in the upper-middle-class area where I live is a man who owns luxury hotels. His house is huge, but no sooner had he moved in than he appropriated about half of the pavement space to the front and side of his house, claiming it for his own. This means less parking for others, less pavement for children, less walking space for everyone. Of the 400-odd…

Dude I live in Brazil where we have dish washers and washing machines for decades and here the upper middle class really never let their maids go with a fair salary or even said they were unnecessary once these stuff became available, I doubt they will disappear overnight, just like they did not over here.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#194

Post by ashray »

denzil_correa wrote: post #126

There may be a lot of misconceptions on the poor and class divide in India. I would like to answer some of them by posting some numbers and providing context. Who are the 'poor' in India? The poor in India, according to the Planning Commission, are people who live on 32 Indian Rupees/59cents per day. How many people are poor in India? The Planning Commission of India reports that there are 29.8% of the population who…

Thanks for posting this since a lot of people have been asking for numbers and it was late last night and I couldn't really dig up sources for all the info I posted.

You're absolutely right about the huge gap that exists between people trying to just make it, and even the middle class who have a roof over their heads. Unfortunately, most city dwellers fail to acknowledge this.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#195

Post by curiousfiddler »

ashray wrote: post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

I just hope that this is not how we reason about things in general. I feel very sad reading your comment especially on HN. Not because what you are saying is right or wrong. But because the conclusions you draw are based on pretty much your personal experiences and those experiences are a very small sample set. My concerns:

1. "I've had statements from rich girls in New Delhi who don't like 'these poor people who stare at us', but are completely fine with spoilt rich brats driving circles around them while honking away."

How many "statements" did you get?

2. "These people struggle (or think that they do..) for so long in the rat race that they forget that they have risen above it and gone far beyond that. Perhaps that is why they seem to lack compassion and empathy."

Based on what do you conclude this?

3. "You know, rich people with 4 bedroom apartments on the 17th floor in and around the capital."

Rich?

4. "Most people who the 'middle class' perceive as lower class are almost sub humans in their eyes."

Based on what do you conclude this?

5. "The middle class got to point fingers once more at the lower classes who 'rape us'. They got to ask the government what they are doing to protect them from these 'evil immigrants who come into New Delhi and ruin our fair city'."

Did you participate in any of the protests? You know, this is an egg on the face of all who spent days protesting after the incident. Again, what is this based on? Can you point to any news articles or any research/survey that got this out?

Yes, situation is complicated but people have started debating about a lot of things. There is a lot more participation from the common man. This never happened in the past. This evolution of 1 billion people to a developed and civilized society is indeed slow as much as it is unique. But I am confident it will happen - India is still a democracy, people still have a say in determining their future...

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#196

Post by Volpe »

frankzinger wrote: post #191
Volpe wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your callousness and (what seems to be a) lack of empathy to those less fortunate is quite confronting to read.

Kamaal makes a valid point. He is simply stating things from the perspective of a poor person, and is describing reality. It would be a big mistake for a poor person to rely on somebody else to improve his situation. The situation is very similar in South Africa. The poor makes up such a large proportion of the population that their situation cannot be improved significantly without major wealth redistribution (combi…

I wouldn't agree with this. the poor (generally) on their own: Have no chance. They can work endlessly, and their situation will not change. Kamaal seems to be blaming them for being 'victims'... But they literally have no chance on their own. They need others (poor and higher classes) to change the institutions that cause their helplessness.

Arguing they have only themselves to rely on, feels like a rationalisation to not help them.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#197

Post by [deleted] »

raganwald wrote: post #112

Am I the only one who sees this exact same behaviour here in North America, and indeed, here on Hacker News? A sense of entitlement? A feeling that things like anti-discrimination laws are an inconvenience to be brushed off, taxes are a way of stealing the hard-earned wealth on entrepreneurs, and so on? I see nothing particularly Indian about this story. It seems like part fo the human condition. That being said, we…

[deleted]

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#198

Post by jiggy2011 »

markdown wrote: post #122
jiggy2011 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK a lot of door to door collecting for charities is done by private companies who take a significant chunk of the donation for themselves. Perhaps richer people are more likely to know this and be sceptical of door to door collections. They may also value their time more and not like being "hassled". This does not necessarily mean that they do not provide charity donations. They may just do it in a smarter wa…

> This does not necessarily mean that they do not provide charity donations. They may just do it in a smarter way, for example attending charity dinners/events where they get to rub shoulders with other affluent people. Smarter = self-serving?

I suppose you could say that, or an alignment of interests.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#199

Post by zoul »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #103
davidroberts wrote: post #74

This does not just apply in India. A long time ago, I had a job soliciting donations door to door in the US. We did all we could to avoid the rich neighborhoods and actively sought out the poor minority neighborhoods. People in those neighborhoods with only two dollars would give one to help others. In the rich neighborhoods, they would call the police the moment they saw you. If I ever had to have a heart attack in…

In the UK a lot of door to door collecting for charities is done by private companies who take a significant chunk of the donation for themselves. Perhaps richer people are more likely to know this and be sceptical of door to door collections. They may also value their time more and not like being "hassled". This does not necessarily mean that they do not provide charity donations. They may just do it in a smarter wa…

Exactly. I live in the Czech Republic and give a part of my income to a non-profit of my choice. The organization’s well known, they promise to give at least 90 percent of the money directly to those in need, and they have a regular audit to check the money flow. That’s why I refuse to give money to charities collecting on the streets, where the guarantees are much smaller and the way of collecting much more intrusive.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#200

Post by frankzinger »

Volpe wrote: post #196
frankzinger wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kamaal makes a valid point. He is simply stating things from the perspective of a poor person, and is describing reality. It would be a big mistake for a poor person to rely on somebody else to improve his situation. The situation is very similar in South Africa. The poor makes up such a large proportion of the population that their situation cannot be improved significantly without major wealth redistribution (combi…

I wouldn't agree with this. the poor (generally) on their own: Have no chance. They can work endlessly, and their situation will not change. Kamaal seems to be blaming them for being 'victims'... But they literally have no chance on their own. They need others (poor and higher classes) to change the institutions that cause their helplessness. Arguing they have only themselves to rely on, feels like a rationalisation…

Which part of Kamaal's post blames anybody for having the 'victim mentality'? All I see him saying is that 10:1 nobody will help you so you need to either accept poverty or work towards getting yourself out of it.

EDIT: I see where you're coming from now that I've seen his higher-up posts.

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