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India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

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Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#151

Post by dpmehta02 »

Entitlement is a problem amongst many people who experience success, regardless of class or nationality.

Daniel Kahneman & Amos Tversky have shown this in numerous studies, but here's an easily relatable example of theirs: Financial advisors.[1]

Predicting markets is an inherently random game. We often point to those who have been successful for a long period of time as an example that it is possible to beat the system, but that analysis fails to account for the other end of the probability distribution: those who have failed for a long period of time (or failed so hard early that they had to get out of the game).

In other words, for every big winner, there is a big loser. The fact that some people win or lose can (mostly) be explained by randomness (or cheating).

But Kahneman & Tversky's stunning finding with Financial Advisors, and humans in general, is that those who are successful attribute their success mostly to skill, hard work, etc, while failing to adequately acknowledge how large a role chance played. For the humble, this is not a problem, but for the arrogant or uninformed, this can easily turn into entitlement.

(BTW I definitely believe that, in most fields, a person needs to meet certain thresholds of hard work, energy, intelligence, etc. to be successful, but the level of success after reaching those thresholds is largely a function of chance.)

We humans are very good at drawing false conclusions from random data. Have you watched a basketball game recently? If a good shooter misses a couple free throws, commentators seem obligated to explain that the reason for this is fatigue, or poor form, or this, or that. How about the fact that it just randomly happens sometimes?

Applying this thinking to Indian elites: they have a lot of money, probably through their families or their own success. They believe their status is well deserved and earned, either because of superior genetics or superior skills (or any other number of reasons), and as a result, the uninformed feel entitled (and act accordingly). The author's anecdotal examples aside, this is no different than how many (but not all!) people behave on Wall Street, in athletics, at the high levels of corporations, etc. This is not an Indian problem, or an elite problem; it's a human problem.

Fooled by Randomness[2]. Again.

[1]http://www.businessinsider.com/daniel-kahneman-on-wealth-man... [2]http://www.amazon.com/Fooled-Randomness-Hidden-Chance-Market...

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#152

Post by mayanksinghal »

ashray wrote: post #38
corin_ wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess it depends on your culture/background, but your description of upper class people who believe they are middle class sound like people I would call middle class - I'm English. So while you may be completely right in the context of India, your examples don't necessarily explain it well to an international audience.

Not even 0.005% of the Indian populace can afford the things I mentioned as examples. Maybe the problem is that we take our cues of what is considered upper class from international standards and therefore fail to acknowledge our own privileges in a local context ?

> Not even 0.005% of the Indian populace can afford the things I mentioned as examples.

Any references for that? The one I found, partly disagrees with your claims [1]. [1] also suggests that wealth disparity in India is better when compared to world. I am not saying the situation is good, but it is not as bloddy and fearing as you suggest it is. And there isn't something very particular about India in this case, I think the problem is a more widespread. And yes, the rich in India compare themselves to global standards when they determine if they are wealthy - because the world is more global now than we would like to believe. You suggest elsewhere that these people are upper class because it takes so little to help the lower classes. If that is any metric, most of the western hemisphere should be categorized as upper class because it helping a significant majority of eastern hemisphere will not have significant negative impact on lifestyle or wealth of the west.

[1] http://www.wealthbull.com/stock-market-today/878-wealth-dist...

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#153

Post by manishsharan »

derringer wrote: post #105
manishsharan wrote: post #100

I highly doubt the veracity of the article about the SUV driving young man and the vegetable seller; this story confirms your worst stereotypes about India and gets eyeballs but it is bullshit. I would like to point out that poor people in India are a very well represented : Communist part and Marxist parties are doing very well in India. Every political party courts the votes of poor people. If you pull shit like th…

Stereotypes often ring true, no one attributes this kind of stuff to northern Europe and there's a reason for that. As to your claim that he's lying about the vegetable cart story. In order for his car to get swarmed, at least one of those vegetable sellers has to make the first move, sometimes this happens, but 9 times out of 10 people look out for their own skins ahead of righteous vengeance.

I am not excusing the appalling behavior of some of the rich in India. All I am saying is that this article is highly sensational and is merely backed by anecdotal evidence.

>>no one attributes this kind of stuff to northern Europe and there's a reason for that. Could the reason be a willingness of the those societies to overlook this kind of behavior towards people with ..umm higher melatonin levels ? Slavery / colonialism / apartheid ring a bell ?

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#154

Post by redcircle »

youngerdryas wrote: post #124
redcircle wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree: upper class isn't about wealth. So much of it is about culture (in the sense that culture breeds character traits). And the ambition to obtain wealth in the middle class breeds character traits that impose a barrier for entering the upper class.

>the ambition to obtain wealth in the middle class breeds character traits that impose a barrier for entering the upper class. Care to elaborate on said traits?

One example: the inferiority complex.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#155

Post by redcircle »

tomkarlo wrote: post #135
redcircle wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree: upper class isn't about wealth. So much of it is about culture (in the sense that culture breeds character traits). And the ambition to obtain wealth in the middle class breeds character traits that impose a barrier for entering the upper class.

This is what folks in the upper class like to believe so they can feel like there's more separating them from the middle class than just money. It's also a comfort to believe that even if you end up bankrupt, you're still "upper class". (And often, that people who are new money and richer than you are somehow not "upper class.") Make a million dollars a year, and you can go to all the charity balls and opera galas yo…

It is quite possible for the middle class to move into the upper class. It is just ironic that the desire to entire the upper class is often part of neuroses that make it impossible to enter.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#156

Post by maddalab »

ashray wrote: post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

Quote from the article

"Let me tell you another story: my neighbour in the upper-middle-class area where I live is a man who owns luxury hotels. His house is huge, but no sooner had he moved in than he appropriated about half of the pavement space to the front and side of his house, claiming it for his own. This means less parking for others, less pavement for children, less walking space for everyone. Of the 400-odd houses in this area, at least half have done this. At the same time they have also collectively seen off the only roadside tea stall in the area that served all the service providers – the guards, the drivers, the domestics, the sweepers. "

Both the writer and you are discounting the 200 odd houses in the area that have not claimed an entitlement on the pavement, by doing so you are discrediting the willingness of those who are playing by the rules to further an argument that does no hold scrutiny. Further more as others have stated in comments, there is nothing in the article that is uniquely Indian.

> In India this is quite possible, a middle class person could easily hire 3-4 people and therefore start to create change.

Most people do not have a need to hire 3-4 people. Growing up it was common to have a maid who helped with household chores due to the absence of amenities like a dish washer or washing machine. As these services become available there is no need to hire folks to do such work. Hiring folks and having them laze around only to take home wages is a ridiculous idea, moreover wealth saved by not hiring these folks is spent on other purposes (movies, restaurants etc.) that the so called wealth might consider a good return on investment. These in turn create jobs for services that are required (taxi drivers, ticket vendors, waiters, restaurant managers etc.). The fact that the so called upper class people do not hire folks to do their dishes and laundry is if anything a move towards a society with fewer artificial classes.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#157

Post by bbbhn »

walshemj wrote: post #116
hkmurakami wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These people struggle (or think that they do..) for so long in the rat race that they forget that they have risen above it and gone far beyond that. If these are people who have "made" the money themselves in their own generation, I can see why/how they still view themselves as middle class. It's a mindset. I have had the fortune of getting to know many SV millionaires who grew up in modesty/poverty, and still buy s…

Actually the upper class in the UK are known for shabby chic ie wearing the same 2nd hand Barbour coat that smells of Labrador for 20+ years.

WASPs in the US act similarly.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#158

Post by manishsharan »

cynicalkane wrote: post #120
cafard wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been closer to India than San Diego, and most of the persons of Indian descent I know speak with either a Midwestern or a Mid-Atlantic accent. Evidently the point has been made about American entitlement, so I'll pass on that. In general it seems to take a couple of generations of security for any given elite to look around and decide that it has obligations. In an American context, think of the Rockefel…

Actually, It took Rockefeller 0 generations to decide he had obligations to society. Massive philanthropy and libertarian-flavored egalitarianism was a hallmark of the old "robber barons". My hometown library was a Carnegie library, and the college I went to was founded by Rockefeller. Rockefeller also funded one of America's first colleges for black women (Spelman). By contrast, the Indian elites described in the OP…

Gandhi and the earlier India National Congress were finance largely by Indian elites. Today, the Indian elites finance much of the orphanages , temples and culture of India. TATAs are essentially run by a charitable institution. The once powerful Birlas built several colleges , schools and temples. My wife was born in a town largely built by a private business. Indian business sustain even the mos leftist publications by advertising. The Indian elites went out and built the whole IT industry of India. Infosys is leading a new way of philatropy in India. Feeding the hungry and poor is an integral a part of our cultural /religious rituals. In North America, check out the Langars at your local Gurudwara or Temples.

But of course, publishing an article that does not conform to the worst stereotyping of India will not get to to HN first page.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#159

Post by kamaal »

ashray wrote: post #63
jimrandomh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what these people call themselves? Middle class. They refuse to acknowledge that they are wealthy. No, they've got it right. The distinction between middle class and lower class is entirely about wealth, but the distinction between middle class and upper class is not. Wealth is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for being upper class; the distinguishing features are flexibility and power, not money.…

You're 100% correct. However, the poor in India are truly trapped, almost like slaves to their own poverty ( http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/08/generat... ). By comparison those who have acquired sufficient wealth are free to do whatever they please! With that freedom comes a responsibility to acknowledge it and to not act like complete idiots. Unfortunately, even the rich to a large extent aren't a…

>>You're 100% correct. However, the poor in India are truly trapped, almost like slaves to their own poverty

Sorry I refuse to believe in this victim hood mentality. We seriously need to get out of this 'Somebody needs to do it for me' ideology. Nobody is going to help you and shouldn't. Because frankly no matter whom you can speak to is going through a little battle of their own.

I am working hard here pushing 19 hour schedules to ensure I have a good life. Somebody else is all welcome to do so. I can understand if the person is ill or is physically disabled. But a healthy person who doesn't work hard deserves his condition.

And in a country like India, expecting somebody to come and help is not a unrealistic expectation but a 'unjust' expectation.

>>By comparison those who have acquired sufficient wealth are free to do whatever they please!

You make acquiring wealth sound like somebody just woke up one day and found a sack of gold biscuits at their door step.

>>With that freedom comes a responsibility to acknowledge it and to not act like complete idiots

Exactly.

There by each man for his own and shall deserve net result of his own work.

>>Unfortunately, even the rich to a large extent aren't aware of how rich they truly are.

Because nothing is really enough but that's a totally different discussion altogether.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#160

Post by quadhome »

ameister14 wrote: post #95
Confusion wrote: post #76

Nietzsche and The Last Psychiatrist[1] would have a field day with this. The article tells a story we love to believe: we may be poorer than the people the article talks about, but we are nicer, more empathic, better people. We love to believe it, because it makes us feel good about ourselves and provides a sense of justice: nobody has it all and if someone has more of one thing, he will have less of something else.…

Yes, people who you believe are undeserving can obtain wealth. No, that doesn't mean that all wealthy people are like that or that it is necessary to behave badly to become wealthy. The last psychiatrist is an ok writer, and a lot of his stuff is fun to read, but he draws some really erroneous conclusions. I'd be careful about being drawn in by that.

"He?"
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