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Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

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Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#141

Post by micro_cam »

ignostic wrote: post #126
tokenadult wrote: post #65

The most statistically astute comment posted here so far is the top-level comment by micro_cam https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5493772 pointing out that the study design here doesn't involve random assignment to strength training of any kind, but rather just observation of the study population over time. Sure, it's a good idea to be stronger rather than weaker. Moreover, it is plausible that exercises that tend…

Criticism regarding association, while valid, is largely irrelevant. You need to understand that a clinical trial on this matter is nearly impossible. 1) Imagine the cost of holding a clinical trial over 20 years. 2) Imagine the difficulty of trying to get people to adhere to a workout routine for 20 years! 3) Given what we already know, it's probably unethical to tell a control group not to exercise or build signifi…

First, I believe that strength training is good for you and do a ton of it in the form of rock climbing.

As a scientist I dislike the trend of observational studies getting massive press (see associations between Wine, Coffee, Chocolate etc and health/lifespan) because, as you say, we are doing (and should be funding more) studies on some of the underlying mechanisms but it is difficult to summarize them in a punchy headline.

There are have also been some really elegantly designes observational studies that use comparisons between family members, twins or features of the population to reduce bias in an ethical way.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#142

Post by stouset »

archon wrote: post #106
john_b wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like software development, fitness has many methods and plenty of adherents that will swear by each one. Unlike software, however, human physiology doesn't change very quickly. Generally, simpler is better. In general, you should mix cardio work with lifting heavy things. The ratio will depend on your goals, as will the kinds of lifting you do. All things being equal, exercises that involve more muscle groups and lar…

> If you have weak joints or other physical constraints, machines can be a good place to start, as they will provide you some degree of support and help with your form. This is one of the main reasons I've stuck with the machines. I have a rotator cuff issue in my left arm that makes that arm very unstable. Lifting heavy things with that arm without any support makes me very nervous, even after doing PT exercises for…

Ironically, some of these types of issues can be exacerbated by machines. They often limit you to a fixed range of motion which doesn't line up with your anatomically natural range of motion.

Obviously limitations from injuries are extremely specific to the individual, so your issues may legitimately cause some barbell lifts (particularly bench presses) to be a bad idea. But I do also personally know of a lot of anecdotal evidence that points to freeweight exercise reducing the impact of people's injuries: e.g., knee pain from squats in a smith machine disappearing when performed in a power rack.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#143

Post by jack9 »

guylhem wrote: post #113

Why are so many people discussing the evidence here? If one seriously believes the BMJ would let a questionable study be published, think again. I'm not saying everything that is published in high quality peer reviewed journals is absolutely true, but it is subject to so much scrutiny that is unlikely to have an evident flaw in the reasoning, or at least some that is not properly mentioned in the article or letters t…

> If one seriously believes the BMJ would let a questionable study be published, think again.

All studies are questionable. A good study is scrutinized, not qualified based on who issues them. This is not a double blind study (it's rather impractical to perform) and the conclusions are carefully worded. To say it's unlikely to have evident flaws, misses the point.

> Exercice, as in improving the muscle mass, is well known to have positive health effects.

THIS is NOT well known. You state a popular belief with a dubious lack of constraints. How long and how much lifting does it take to put a 200lb 35yr old adult male into heart failure? What about a 90yr adult malw?

The specific evidence is lacking. Everyone who casually talks about musclemass thinks it's a tautological generalization, because they heard it from a doctor making a practical generalization for a patient (who's likely already sick). This study provides some (or not, depending on interpretation) specific evidence. Some regressions still need to be performed on the data to remove uncertainty and provide useful bands of data.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#144

Post by sofal »

unoti wrote: post #59
sofal wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now just hold on a second there. As long as we're throwing out anecdotes, let me say that I've been lifting for a few years now and squats completely devastate my knees. I've tried over and over again and no matter what, my knees get a stabbing, debilitating pain when I squat, even at lighter weights. Physical therapy doesn't help. X-rays show no problems. Obsessing about correct posture doesn't help. Squats are just…

If it doesn't hurt when you do body weight squats with zero weight, then you can make it not hurt when you do heavier weights. The trick is to start with body weight squats, or an empty bar, and build slowly. At every step, keeping proper form. Adding only 5 lbs each workout. So many people make the exact claim you're making, without actually going through the painstaking process of starting from no weight on the bar…

I can do body squats fine (lots of popping, though). I've worked up in weight (though not quite from empty). One week I'll be able to do semi-heavy squats (not even my bodyweight) with no problems and then the next two weeks I can't even add much more than the bar before the knife-in-the-knee. Both knees have the issue, and not simultaneously. The physical therapist says I'm a bit pronated, so I try to account for that in my posture. I tried all the stretches and exercises I was given. It's not like I'm doing things that my legs aren't used to. I'd been doing leg exercises, including squats for a long time. It's just that when I get to about 85-90% of my bodyweight on squats, it'll only be a week or two of no problems and then for the next two weeks I won't be able to do anything.

I do deadlifts, and they usually go just fine except when I've messed up my knees with squats, in which case then my knees will die during deadlifts too. Every time I tell myself I can get back into squats gradually I come back demoralized, and it poisons my other workouts too.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#145

Post by sofal »

foobarqux wrote: post #48
sofal wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now just hold on a second there. As long as we're throwing out anecdotes, let me say that I've been lifting for a few years now and squats completely devastate my knees. I've tried over and over again and no matter what, my knees get a stabbing, debilitating pain when I squat, even at lighter weights. Physical therapy doesn't help. X-rays show no problems. Obsessing about correct posture doesn't help. Squats are just…

Where is the knee pain, what type of squat are you doing and to what depth?

The knee pain is just below or possibly right under the kneecap. I try to go to parallel, even though the deeper I go the more likely one of my knees is to crap out. I'm doing regular squats AFAIK, not box squats or anything out of the ordinary. I've worked on my posture, and gotten people to critique it at the gym.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#146

Post by micro_cam »

tokenadult wrote: post #65

The most statistically astute comment posted here so far is the top-level comment by micro_cam https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5493772 pointing out that the study design here doesn't involve random assignment to strength training of any kind, but rather just observation of the study population over time. Sure, it's a good idea to be stronger rather than weaker. Moreover, it is plausible that exercises that tend…

"which sorts...gain the most benefit from what sort of exercise" is really key.

An active area of research for me is analyzing (multivariate non linear) regression models to characterize sub populations in which an observed effect is strong or weak for large genomic studies. Correlations, p-values and univariate linear models are frustratingly insufficient in many cases and effects seen across the entire population may lead to recommendations that are bad for a large numer of people.

(I'm not saying everyone shouldn't go step away from the keyboard and move some iron...just talking stats.)

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#147

Post by sofal »

kyllo wrote: post #62
sofal wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now just hold on a second there. As long as we're throwing out anecdotes, let me say that I've been lifting for a few years now and squats completely devastate my knees. I've tried over and over again and no matter what, my knees get a stabbing, debilitating pain when I squat, even at lighter weights. Physical therapy doesn't help. X-rays show no problems. Obsessing about correct posture doesn't help. Squats are just…

In the absence of pre-existing knee issues I would wager that there's something wrong with your squat form. Do you squat below parallel? Do you sit back with your weight on your heels and spread your knees apart when squatting? Have you tried taking a video (from the side) of yourself barbell squatting and posting it to one of the major lifting forums for a "form check?" You can get a lot of good form/technique feedb…

I try to go down to parallel, and I do sit back on my heels and spread my knees apart. I have not done the video thing but I have researched it and had it critiqued by people at the gym and by physical therapists.

The amount of time I've spent trying to refine my form and then have it do nothing for me is demoralizing. I understand that's the only suggestion people can come up with, and I understand why. I mean, I'm just some random guy on the internet and from that perspective the likelihood that I'm just cluelessly doing it wrong is high. But there comes a point for me at which I can no longer be satisfied with that answer. I've got better form than hundreds of thousands of noobs who successfully do heavier squats than me every single week. I feel like I'm chasing a holy grail of form religiously, like if I could just find the right number of centimeters to separate my legs or the exact right angle of my knees or the exact right balance of weight on my heels then everything will work out.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#148

Post by orangethirty »

unoti wrote: post #4

I've been doing strength training (the program is called Stronglifts 5x5[1]) with freeweights for about 9 months now. I just turned 44, and I've never felt better, and I'm stronger now than I have ever been. The program I use describes 3 simple exercises to do 3 times a week, and each workout takes me 30-45 minutes. Very little equipment is needed. It's hard to find good information about this on the net that covers…

May you describe exactly what type of equipment do I have to buy? Dumb it down, please.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#149

Post by antirez »

Just in case after reading this you want to start exercising, I strongly suggest the following two resources:

* http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/wiki/faq

* http://simplesciencefitness.com/

I have been doing strength training for a couple of years now and I can ensure you that it changed my life: better health, better quality of life, better code (I'm more focused).

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#150

Post by micro_cam »

ellyagg wrote: post #136
micro_cam wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big issue is sub populations. I work on similar large studies including genomic data and it is quite frequent to see associations of the form "central americans have a lower rate of disease x" and "central americans have a higher rait of factor y." This produces a statistical association but, especially with genomic factors, factor y can just be something that randomly identifies the group. Similarly in this data…

There are extremely good reasons, aside from this study, to think increased strength would improve life expectancy.

This is also true for endurance running, wine, coffee, beer, olive oil, eating lots of meat, not eating lots of meat etc.
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