Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#61

Post by archon » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:28 PM UTC

drexel wrote: post #47

unoti wrote: post #4

I've been doing strength training (the program is called Stronglifts 5x5[1]) with freeweights for about 9 months now. I just turned 44, and I've never felt better, and I'm stronger now than I have ever been. The program I use describes 3 simple exercises to do 3 times a week, and each workout takes me 30-45 minutes. Very little equipment is needed. It's hard to find good information about this on the net that covers…

The book "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe (book and author pretty much universally lauded by the strength training community) is also a great starting point. Beginners can often become overwhelmed by all the differing viewpoints and training methods presented to them when researching strength training but (besides avoiding injury by maintaining proper form and generally listening to your body to allow sufficient…

> Beginners can often become overwhelmed by all the differing viewpoints

Yeah, I'm in this position. I've been using the machines at my gym (more for variety than any other reason) and when I started looking into strength training, I was swamped with competing methods, many of which instantly sent up red flags in my brain reading "SCAM".

It's difficult for someone from outside the fitness world (me) to judge whether a method is legitimate or if it's simply the fitness equivalent of a get rich quick scheme.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#62

Post by kyllo » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:28 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #39

kyllo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I used to only jog (2-6 miles at a time) for exercise, but I had lots of knee problems. Then I picked up Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and that also kept me in good shape but gave me different knee problems, until I started lifting. Lifting is clearly good for the knees and back. The myths that squats will hurt your knees and deadlifts will hurt your back need to be dispelled.

Now just hold on a second there. As long as we're throwing out anecdotes, let me say that I've been lifting for a few years now and squats completely devastate my knees. I've tried over and over again and no matter what, my knees get a stabbing, debilitating pain when I squat, even at lighter weights. Physical therapy doesn't help. X-rays show no problems. Obsessing about correct posture doesn't help. Squats are just…

In the absence of pre-existing knee issues I would wager that there's something wrong with your squat form. Do you squat below parallel? Do you sit back with your weight on your heels and spread your knees apart when squatting? Have you tried taking a video (from the side) of yourself barbell squatting and posting it to one of the major lifting forums for a "form check?" You can get a lot of good form/technique feedback that way.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#63

Post by unoti » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:31 PM UTC

IanDrake wrote: post #46

unoti wrote: post #4

I've been doing strength training (the program is called Stronglifts 5x5[1]) with freeweights for about 9 months now. I just turned 44, and I've never felt better, and I'm stronger now than I have ever been. The program I use describes 3 simple exercises to do 3 times a week, and each workout takes me 30-45 minutes. Very little equipment is needed. It's hard to find good information about this on the net that covers…

I'm going to look into this. I'm halfway through p90x (again) and starting to feel really beat up, instead of really great. This is where I usually get some kind of injury with p90x. Actually, just yesterday I think I pulled my trap a bit. Now it hurts to hold my left arm out (as if reaching to shake someone's hand). Anyway, I work out for surfing. I'm happy with the p90x results, but again, starting to feel 10 years…

Soreness is seriously not a problem. That's because you start with (the very humbling) empty bar, and add only 5lbs each workout. Eating is key-- the progression and ease of working out is noticeably easier when eating a lot of protein. But even though you're doing squats a lot, and exercises that hit your back, it actually feels good, like you're doing what your body was made for, rather than bad.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#64

Post by ISL » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:31 PM UTC

hyperpape wrote: post #50

jkuria wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Do you need to say something confusing stated in esoteric medical terms?

Have you ever read an explanation of a compiler or concurrency using only the 1000 most common English words? It can be done (and I wish I could find the link), but there's a reason we don't talk like that, and neither should scientists.

Sometimes scientists can, and we should.

Simple precision is good.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#65

Post by tokenadult » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:31 PM UTC

The most statistically astute comment posted here so far is the top-level comment by micro_cam

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5493772

pointing out that the study design here doesn't involve random assignment to strength training of any kind, but rather just observation of the study population over time. Sure, it's a good idea to be stronger rather than weaker. Moreover, it is plausible that exercises that tend to develop strength (as measured in the study) have health benefits above and beyond merely developing strength. There is certainly no reason not to exercise based on this finding. But there is also not a strong reason to predict a longer rather than shorter life from your personal strength measurement, even though the study did the usual kind of regression analysis to control for other independent variables. Simply put, this was not a treatment-control study design,

http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz

so no inference of causation is supported here. The authors were careful to write the word "association" (which is honest), and the authors were careful to investigate all-cause mortality in this study population (which is thoughtful), but we don't know yet how much you or I can improve individual lifespan by doing strength-building exercises.

AFTER EDIT: The comment by micro_cam, which deserves your upvote for getting me started on my comment, is especially astute because it mentions that this was not a genetically sensitive study design. To answer the question posed in one of the replies this comment received, that will eventually be an issue worth looking at, which sorts of "endophenotypes" gain the most benefit from what sort of exercise. But we are nowhere near that level of precision of investigation yet. The statement about limitations of the study at the end of the submitted article mentions more issues.

Picking up on something I learned from the late Richard Feynman's comments on the Challenger explosion investigation, I would like to see a scatterplot of these data displayed over the calculated regression line, to see how much uncertainty still surrounds their model. As it is, the confidence intervals around the death rates for different categories of strength overlap considerably, so there are some strong people with the same mortality risk as some of the weaker people.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#66

Post by firichapo » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:31 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #39

kyllo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I used to only jog (2-6 miles at a time) for exercise, but I had lots of knee problems. Then I picked up Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and that also kept me in good shape but gave me different knee problems, until I started lifting. Lifting is clearly good for the knees and back. The myths that squats will hurt your knees and deadlifts will hurt your back need to be dispelled.

Now just hold on a second there. As long as we're throwing out anecdotes, let me say that I've been lifting for a few years now and squats completely devastate my knees. I've tried over and over again and no matter what, my knees get a stabbing, debilitating pain when I squat, even at lighter weights. Physical therapy doesn't help. X-rays show no problems. Obsessing about correct posture doesn't help. Squats are just…

Could be the meniscus. MRI might help to figure out what is going on. Just my 2 cents.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#67

Post by Perceval » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:32 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #39

kyllo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I used to only jog (2-6 miles at a time) for exercise, but I had lots of knee problems. Then I picked up Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and that also kept me in good shape but gave me different knee problems, until I started lifting. Lifting is clearly good for the knees and back. The myths that squats will hurt your knees and deadlifts will hurt your back need to be dispelled.

Now just hold on a second there. As long as we're throwing out anecdotes, let me say that I've been lifting for a few years now and squats completely devastate my knees. I've tried over and over again and no matter what, my knees get a stabbing, debilitating pain when I squat, even at lighter weights. Physical therapy doesn't help. X-rays show no problems. Obsessing about correct posture doesn't help. Squats are just…

Are you sure you're going below parallel on your squats?

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#68

Post by lkozma » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:32 PM UTC

bytefactory wrote: post #14

chollida1 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it depends on how hard and how long you run. Sprinting is one of the best muscle building activities you can do. I thought it was crazy to try, but I swear it's added 50lbs to my deadlift with one sprint work out a week for 3 months. Going from 475 to 525 is a pretty incredible increase in my deadlift considering I was adding about 5lbs a month before.

I'd just like to add that while running is great, one of the most effective forms of running is HIITs (High Intensity Interval Training). Basically, you run at maximum speed (80-100% of your capacity) for short bursts (10-15 seconds when you're starting out), and at about 50-60% for the warm-up and cool-down periods before and after (around 2 minutes) [1]. You do a total of about 20 minutes of this (and believe me, t…

Interestingly, this is what Bruce Lee advocated too.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#69

Post by nosequel » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:37 PM UTC

dbruce wrote: post #44

It's likely that healthier people are stronger on average....hence getting stronger by doing strength training will not change things.

So you are saying you didn't read the paper or abstract. They sort of covered that entire topic. This is about strength not "health", they took that into account in the study.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#70

Post by stefantalpalaru » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 5:38 PM UTC

pekk wrote: post #29

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do. Using a language that only other scientists like yourself understand is a way to prove that you belong to that community and that the unwashed masses need to fund your research further because it's obviously serious stuff that mere mortals can not begin to comprehend.

The people from whom you would get funding would understand the technical jargon of the field. Nobody is getting funded just for being so confusing that nobody can understand.

Look above the grant committee that decides how the allocated funds will be distributed and you'll find clueless people[1][2].

[1] http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57577567/obama-brain-ini...

[2] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-54_en.htm