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Problems with the TSA

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Re: Problems with the TSA

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to his blog post, there is no limit on volume. I don't know where you're getting this 100ml number.

There is no volume limit for medication. The issue here is that in his case store-bought juice is his 'medicine'.

I'm a type 2 diabetic. The medecine I take affects my blood sugar. The "medecine" that protects me from my medecine is sugar and can be bought anywhere. It's medicinal to me regardless of what any moron TSA agent might think. If my flight is delayed and I can't eat or drink something sugary when I need it, my blood sugar drops and I go into a coma and risk brain damage. Should I depend on the flight attendant to rush me some sugar if I'm about to pass out or should I be allowed to carry it with me? I don't have to rely on sugary drinks in emergencies, I can use sugar pills but his needs are more constant and immediate. I may not agree with this adversarial approach but I sure as hell understand his position.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI, they tested the liquid in question for explosives and of course it turned up negative (as can be seen near the end of the video). Would requiring a doctor's note or more explanation really make any of us safer. I'm sure the terrorists have doctors too. I think the main point here was this was already decided in court and even put into policy and the TSA just disregarded it.

I'm sure terrorists have chemists too, and would defeat that swab test in a week if it was that easy to take large amounts of unknown substances through security.

Not necessary. The TSA already gave a better alternative. FTFV: They can put the liquid in several smaller bottles and then let him through with it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m12mLXgO1A&t=11m10s

Re: Problems with the TSA

#113
I've been flying since the 1960s, and internationally since the early 1980s. I've written about this general issue (crazy TSA rules that don't appear actually to make any of us safer) for years now on Hacker News.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5216204

Here's the tl;dr version: It would be better to go back to the "old days" when we could bring all kinds of unlikely things with us onto airliners. The best way to keep the public safe is not to inconvenience air travelers but to relentlessly pursue and kill leaders of terrorist networks who try to make flying dangerous and frightening rather than safe and routine. Exercise your rights by not letting terrorists change your lifestyle, and ask your elected officials to ease up on needless inconvenience for air travelers. (Please don't complain if this is brief and doesn't cover all the details; I linked to the long version.)

Best wishes to all of you for safe and dignified travel by the means of your choice.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#114
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TSA is a direct, overt violation of the 4th amendment (search and seizure). Thus, the US federal government is not legitimate under the US Constitution. Don't be so fucking stupid. Apart from the obvious argument that flying is a privilege and not a right, and that you don't need to fly (however impractical this is), even if you were right on the 4th amendment argument it doesn't mean 'the US federal government i…

Calling someone you disagree with "fucking stupid" strongly suggests an argument based on empty emotion, not reasoning. "Privilege" is a false concept in any political discussion. Privileges are granted by the owner of the privilege. But the government does not own my life, nor any aspect thereof, nor any aspect of anybody else's life, including their property. We are not owned by the government. To hold otherwise is…

[deleted]

Re: Problems with the TSA

#115
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TSA is a direct, overt violation of the 4th amendment (search and seizure). Thus, the US federal government is not legitimate under the US Constitution. Don't be so fucking stupid. Apart from the obvious argument that flying is a privilege and not a right, and that you don't need to fly (however impractical this is), even if you were right on the 4th amendment argument it doesn't mean 'the US federal government i…

Here we go again, another "flying is a privilege" argument. Flying is a right: " A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit through the navigable airspace." From http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/40103 I choose to exercise that right by hiring air travel with an airline. Airspace is a public resource that belongs to everyone.

Transit through navigable airspace is a right. Is transit with any cargo I choose a right? If it is, why doesn't that mean I have a right to fly with a concealed weapon?

Re: Problems with the TSA

#116
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Apart from the obvious argument that flying is a privilege and not a right" Really? Why is that true? Who gets to decide what's a "right" and what's a "privilege"? On what basis is that determined? What's the means by which the public can challenge those decisions? Without appropriate answers to those questions, in what way is a society operation under those rules not a totalitarian state?

Well, there's this thing called the Supreme Court, which has established various lower courts, and if you don't like the way things are you find a sympathetic lawyer and file a lawsuit in which you make your argument about how things ought to be different. I don't like to be condescending, but come on, this stuff is in the constitution too. I feel like sometimes people just read the bill or rights and completely igno…

There's no such concept as "a privilege" in the constitution. The constitution isn't a definition of what citizens can do, it's a definition of what the government can do. Like I don't give a crap about the rest of this dumb argument, but drawing some weird distinction and calling one thing a privilege and another a right while wrapping it up int he Constitution is vapid.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he's not actually citing their actual rules, he's citing his interpretation of the rules, and claiming various court decisions support him. He's wrong on both points, AFAICT. Now, he may not like that their is more wiggle room than he likes, but ... As for what is reasonable to inquire about, they can ask about a lot. This is particularly true since it's probably not a custodial interrogation, and they are clearl…

Explaining how he's wrong on both points would be very useful.

Sure

1. The TSA is legally entitled to deference of its interpretations of its own regulations. See Chevron (for statutes. Yes, they get deference to interpret the statutes congress passed that say what they are allowed to do), or Auer (for their interpretations of their own regulations).

It's ridiculous (in the case of Auer deference), but true.

However, at least right now, if the TSA says "our regulations mean X", courts give them deference that their regulations mean X, and it takes a lot to overcome that.

There is at least some hope that Auer deference will die in the next few years. Humorously, one of the justices most people here seem to hate the most, Scalia, is now the strongest opponent of Auer deference:

"For decades, and for no good reason, we have been giving agencies the authority to say what their rules mean, under the harmless-sounding banner of “defer[ring] to an agency’s interpretation of its own regulations."

(and earlier) "The Court there gives effect to a reading of EPA’s regulations that is not the most natural one, simply because EPA says that it believes the unnatural reading is right. It does this, more- over, even though the agency has vividly illustrated that it can write a rule saying precisely what it means—by doing just that while these cases were being briefed.

Enough is enough."

(You can also look at his earlier Talk America concurrence on this subject. http://www.volokh.com/2011/06/09/justice-scalia-questions-au... is a good reference about it)

2. Davis, which he tried to quote, says mostly exactly the opposite of what he wants it to:

"airport screenings are considered to be administrative searches because they are conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme, where the essential administrative purpose is to prevent the carrying of weapons or explosives aboard aircraft."

Note, this seems innocuous at first to an outsider, but administrative searches are not subject to the same requirements as general 4th amendment searches. They only have to be reasonable, not have probable cause. In particular, later it gets you down the path to this: "To judge reasonableness, it is necessary to balance the right to be free of intrusion with “society’s interest in safe air travel.” [US v. Marquez, 410 F.3d 612]). In a fight between "society's interest in safe air travel" vs "justifying why you need a liter of juice", i know who i would bet on. Again, i think such legal rules are wrong-headed, but it doesn't change my view of the current legal state of the world.

But back to US v. Davis:

"[an administrative search is allowed if] no more intrusive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives, confined in good faith to that purpose, and passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly." This is a zinger for two reasons:

1. Now, remember, the TSA, because they get deference, mostly gets to decide what is "more intensive or intrusive than necessary", and courts will defer to them, for the most part.

2. As long as they let you out by saying you won't fly, they pretty much get a free pass.

So there you go. Sucks but true.

PS The idea that searches performed by the TSA are automatically administrative, or even that there should be an administrative search exception, was also conjured up out of whole cloth by the courts, so expecting them to suddenly reverse course and apply "the full force" of the 4th amendment (god i wish i didn't have to use that phrase), is well, wrong headed. Barring the supreme court getting a grand urge to stake out a position here (which is rare), if it happens, it will happen when society is less accepting of this kind of thing, not when it is more.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#118
post #52
post #16

I have a speech impediment. Sometimes, especially when I am tired or upset I can't talk to save my life. I have in the past written note cards to hand out and I carry a notepad and a pen with me. I had not idea they would refuse someone to use them. Well, I guess I should say I am not surprised. To be politically incorrect (insensitive) a good number of TSA employees don't seem to be very bright. I hope your case is…

Of course not; if they trained TSA agents beyond having a simple state machine there wouldn't be so much money left to buy Rapiscan machines. I highly doubt being assholes is due to anything but poor training and their salaries are probably too low for them to really want to put any effort into anything. I'd remove the machines and give them higher wages and better training if I had any say in the matter.

+1 for the state machine reference - funny and hackerish.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#119
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again, another "flying is a privilege" argument. Flying is a right: " A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit through the navigable airspace." From http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/40103 I choose to exercise that right by hiring air travel with an airline. Airspace is a public resource that belongs to everyone.

Keep reading.

Weren't you claiming earlier:

"I'm offering you a communication channel to studio executives right now." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5458900

And you say stuff like you do not have a right to fly?

Too bad there's no way to have HN not show me any of your replies (without scripting).

Re: Problems with the TSA

#120
post #60

I was with him until I watched the actual video, where he basically comes off like a guy deliberately looking for a fight who gets one. He tries to pull the "i don't have to explain why it's a medically necessary liquid, you fuckers should screen it". All they did was ask why it was medically necessary, which is reasonable, in order to prevent people from abusing the policy. His citation that the special needs memo s…

'DannyBee, who IIRC is a practicing lawyer, is alluding to a legal truism: "hard cases make bad law". Look it up; the links are interesting. I think about "hard cases" making "bad law" a lot, even in non-legal situations (like the PyCon drama).

Or "three strikes laws" in California...
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