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Problems with the TSA

saizai.com

51–60 of 218 posts

Re: Problems with the TSA

#51
post #10

Lots of good points. But he does state his disability in public on the web, no problem, while also complaining that he doesn't want to be outed at airports. I'm unclear on why being outed at airports is so bad if telling the whole world is ok. If he addressed this apparent contradiction I'd sympathize even more.

Context is important. Speech by choice is very different than being unlawfully questioned and to have your possessions, medical liquid or otherwise, held hostage contingent on your reply.

I think it's safe to say juice is traditionally not considered a medical liquid. In that situation, he is asking for an exception. It is his requirement to justify the request that his juice should be considered a medial liquid. It's unreasonable to say that he shouldn't have to justify its reclassification as a medical liquid without a few facts and disclosing a few details of his situation. Otherwise, every person would claim their soda/juice is a medical liquid and say they don't have answer questions because it is a medical thing.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#52
post #16

I have a speech impediment. Sometimes, especially when I am tired or upset I can't talk to save my life. I have in the past written note cards to hand out and I carry a notepad and a pen with me. I had not idea they would refuse someone to use them. Well, I guess I should say I am not surprised. To be politically incorrect (insensitive) a good number of TSA employees don't seem to be very bright. I hope your case is…

Of course not; if they trained TSA agents beyond having a simple state machine there wouldn't be so much money left to buy Rapiscan machines. I highly doubt being assholes is due to anything but poor training and their salaries are probably too low for them to really want to put any effort into anything. I'd remove the machines and give them higher wages and better training if I had any say in the matter.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#53
post #42
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was actually tried for a little while. Airports could opt-out of the TSA but still had to meet the screening guidelines. For example if you fly out of SFO you are going to be screened by not the TSA. As of 2011 however the TSA stopped allowing new airports to opt-out ( http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41391509/ ).

I was actually thinking of a parallel airport system. A monopoly outsourcing screening activities to a private company doesn't provide more alternative to the consumer.

Airports generally are privately operated, but it's not about that. Air travel is federally regulated, so the situation isn't even addressable on the ground. For instance, you can't build your own runway, pile 50 people onto a plane, and be free and clear of FAA and DHS.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#54
post #40

I really don't like most of the TSA's procedures either, but watching the hidden camera video, it seems like the OP went in to the situation expecting to have an issue with the TSA. If you approach the TSA adversarially, it's logical that they'd respond unpleasantly. OP: In a patronizing tone : "You're required to accept it, and to screen it. You have the means available to screen it, namely xray and explosive trace…

“If you approach the TSA adversarially, it's logical that they'd respond unpleasantly.”

Why? Aren't they trained to deal with all kinds of people and types of behavior, like anyone in a customer facing profession? If I go to an Apple Store to buy a product while I'm in a bad mood and don't feel up for chit-chat, the sales rep isn't going to make me play nice.

Also, I think Sai was very courteous and patient, given the situation. He obviously knew that if he had actually raised his voice or made a scene, he'd be giving them an excuse not to cooperate. Nonetheless, in the video one of the TSA agents told him to calm down while he was clearly quite calm. That's the kind of shenanigans we see again and again from the TSA.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#55
I have a prosthetic leg and travel weekly. Apparently, the TSA's official policy is (or at least was) that, if asked my me if I am allowed to remove my leg and place it on the x-ray conveyor belt, they are to tell me doing so is forbidden. However, if I simply do so, they are not to stop me. I presume the theory to be that travelers might somehow mis-understand and create a PR disaster by claiming that an amputee was forced to remove his leg.

If I leave my leg on and walk through the metal detector, I must wait around until a male agent is available to swab me, check for explosive residue, and determine that I am not carrying a weapon. It's much more efficient to take the leg off and waddle on my knees through the metal detector.

Most of the TSA agents know me at this point, but occasionally a new person will be caught off guard. Usually, they are speechless in fear of breaking two seemingly conflicting rules: (1) don't offend, humiliate, etc. and (2) don't allow passengers to do stuff they aren't supposed to do. I see some panicked motioning to a supervisor and hear, "Oh, he comes through here all the time! ...Yes, it's allowed." Occasionally, a new agent will tell me, "You can't do that, sir!" When I reply that I've done so well over a hundred times in the past couple years, they defer to a supervisor who informs them of my "rights." [Quotes to convey the absurdity of the situation, of course.]

It is because of my experiences in hearing TSA agents make-up a rule out of thin air that I do not doubt the author of the blog posting. Interestingly, I suspect that my notoriety actually has lead to less scrutiny over time -- the frequency at which my carry-ons are hand inspected has decreased over time.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#56
I was with him until I watched the actual video, where he basically comes off like a guy deliberately looking for a fight who gets one. He tries to pull the "i don't have to explain why it's a medically necessary liquid, you fuckers should screen it".

All they did was ask why it was medically necessary, which is reasonable, in order to prevent people from abusing the policy.

His citation that the special needs memo says things like "a doctors note" are recommended, not required, doesn't say anything to the contrary. Nowhere in the memo does it say "you will not be asked to explain why it's medically necessary", and in fact, the reason they probably recommend doctors notes/etc, is to avoid having to repeat a verbal explanation 100x over.

Realistically, if he challenges this in court, he's likely to end up making bad law.

People don't like to hear that non-sympathetic plaintiffs and bad actors often cause bad law to be made, but it's reality. Judges aren't automatons, and the law isn't that rigid in most cases (which is yet another thing engineers/etc don't like to hear).

He seems to act like fourth amendment law is not open to interpretation, or that fourth amendment law has not changed over time (in fact, to his detriment, since there are a lot more exceptions related to border searches and searches used to ensure security than their used to be). By doing this he misses the one mildly likely result: He will be the cause of a new exception to the 4th amendment.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#58

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

Yes! I commented a few weeks ago about listening to an NPR ToTN segment about the loosening of the pocketknife ban. ToTN even got a guest for the duration of the segment to argue the case for relaxing TSA regulations. As I recall: every caller called to complain that the TSA was relaxing requirements.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#59
The problem is not with the TSA per se but with the representative democracy. Every elected official that has a choice to repel some stupid rule or law is present with the following game-theoretic matrix:

repel then some incident happens that can be somehow associated with this - it's a catastrophe even if the association is completely superficial, the media will manage to spin it to cause enough damage.

repel then nothing happens - there is a minor positive outcome but incumbents already have an overwhelming advantage.

don't repel - there is a minor negative outcome but incumbents already have an overwhelming advantage.

Until incumbents start routinely losing elections repelling any "safety" regulation is the worst move you could make. There is very minor upside and a huge downside. So we will have to keep our kindles showing the splash screen while the plane is waiting at the gate and throw out toothpaste at the TSA checkpoints. Any possible relief will come either from the money pressure (e.g. confiscation of lighters apparently had been interfering with the airports operation so much that it had to be repelled) or political stunts (e.g. Obama showing the terrors of sequester by allowing pen knives and hokey sticks on-board).

Re: Problems with the TSA

#60

I was with him until I watched the actual video, where he basically comes off like a guy deliberately looking for a fight who gets one. He tries to pull the "i don't have to explain why it's a medically necessary liquid, you fuckers should screen it". All they did was ask why it was medically necessary, which is reasonable, in order to prevent people from abusing the policy. His citation that the special needs memo s…

'DannyBee, who IIRC is a practicing lawyer, is alluding to a legal truism: "hard cases make bad law". Look it up; the links are interesting. I think about "hard cases" making "bad law" a lot, even in non-legal situations (like the PyCon drama).
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