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Problems with the TSA

saizai.com

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Re: Problems with the TSA

#41

Post by anigbrowl »

javert wrote: post #4

My mother can't travel by plane, because she has aphasia (can't speak) and a leg brace, due to her stroke. If I go through the airport with her, there is no guarantee the agents will let me stay with her and explain the situation. She can't remove the leg brace on her own for them to make sure it's not a weapon, and TSA agents can't do it properly. So, basically, taking her to the airport is a recipe for having her v…

The TSA is a direct, overt violation of the 4th amendment (search and seizure). Thus, the US federal government is not legitimate under the US Constitution.

Don't be so fucking stupid. Apart from the obvious argument that flying is a privilege and not a right, and that you don't need to fly (however impractical this is), even if you were right on the 4th amendment argument it doesn't mean 'the US federal government is not legitimate.' That's just magical thinking. Please, do yourself a favor and read up on the concept of severability. I'm sorry to be so blunt but when you make absurd claims like that then you just chuck your entire argument into the toilet and pointlessly marginalize yourself.

Now what would be worth exploring is a constitutional challenge to the TSA under the equal protection clause because of your mother's disability. But declaring the entire government illegitimate? Don't you think that with so many lawyers in the US and almost 12 years since the TSA was created, if your idea held any water that it would have been the subject of a major legal battle by now?

Re: Problems with the TSA

#42

Post by sybhn »

holdenk wrote: post #14
sybhn wrote: post #8

Would be interesting to see if a parallel private system could work. The state could maintain standard to which the private network should adhere, i.e. min basic security, etc. In other words break down the monopoly of travel from the state, you know, like in a free society? I generalize on air travel this because all other forms of travel aren't really adequate in a country as big as ours.

That was actually tried for a little while. Airports could opt-out of the TSA but still had to meet the screening guidelines. For example if you fly out of SFO you are going to be screened by not the TSA. As of 2011 however the TSA stopped allowing new airports to opt-out ( http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41391509/ ).

I was actually thinking of a parallel airport system. A monopoly outsourcing screening activities to a private company doesn't provide more alternative to the consumer.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#43

Post by aethertap »

rdtsc wrote: post #23
w1ntermute wrote: post #6

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

Americans (and I am painting with a very wide brush here) I find are very authoritarian. For all the propaganda about freedom, independence, personal rights and property, they are very willing to support authority, very obedient, and most of all would not lift a finger to protect or step up if they see authority overstepping its bounds. As a bit of a background, I grew in a former communist dictatorship so I am famil…

I think it's deeply ingrained in our culture, and especially so in parenting and schooling. The model of schooling we have is based primarily on conditioning people from an early age to accept answers, wisdom, and decisions from an authority figure (externalizing the responsibility for thinking). It is pervasive in the typical classroom, where very strong emphasis is placed on having "the right answer" as opposed to having an effective thinking process. Little attempt is made to engage the students in dialogue, and they are expected to memorize and repeat whatever the teacher delivers. As a result, they do not develop a habit or ability in critical thinking, and do not question things that might need to be questioned. In my opinion, that is one of the greatest causes of the phenomenon of submissiveness in developed nations (this model of schooling is pretty much universal I believe).

There have been some very interesting developments counter to this in recent years, and I hope that they gain some traction. There's a program in the UK called Cognitive Acceleration [1] that seems to have a lot of promise for developing more of a habit of independent thinking. There's also some interesting stuff coming out of Harvard called Visible Thinking [2] that I believe is very beneficial.

Unfortunately, I think it will be quite a while before that kind of thing is widely adopted because of sheer momentum and the apparent drive toward ever more standardized testing.

I'm sure there are dozens of other factors that contribute to what you're talking about, but schooling is one that I recognized as having a huge impact on my own life in terms of my perception of my position relative to authority.

[1] http://www.teachingexpertise.com/articles/cognitive-accelera...

[2] http://www.old-pz.gse.harvard.edu/vt/VisibleThinking_html_fi...

Re: Problems with the TSA

#44

Post by coudron »

Wow. Was thinking Sai had a logical complaint until I watched the video of him interacting with the TSA (or whatever company does security in SFO).

It's clear by the video, he was trying to troll TSA rather than get through security with his medical liquids.

He can't expect to not justify and explain why his liquids are considered medical. Otherwise, every person who paid $4.50 for a soda before security would just pull the "It's medical! You can't ask questions card"

Re: Problems with the TSA

#45

Post by coudron »

cj wrote: post #40

I really don't like most of the TSA's procedures either, but watching the hidden camera video, it seems like the OP went in to the situation expecting to have an issue with the TSA. If you approach the TSA adversarially, it's logical that they'd respond unpleasantly. OP: In a patronizing tone : "You're required to accept it, and to screen it. You have the means available to screen it, namely xray and explosive trace…

Yeah, It's clear he was looking for an argument.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#46

Post by Turing_Machine »

w1ntermute wrote: post #6

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

"the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does"

I keep seeing variants of this claim, but that's not my experience. Everyone I know hates it (and I'm pretty sure that some of those people are "average Americans").

Re: Problems with the TSA

#47

Post by rhizome »

javert wrote: post #4

My mother can't travel by plane, because she has aphasia (can't speak) and a leg brace, due to her stroke. If I go through the airport with her, there is no guarantee the agents will let me stay with her and explain the situation. She can't remove the leg brace on her own for them to make sure it's not a weapon, and TSA agents can't do it properly. So, basically, taking her to the airport is a recipe for having her v…

And Americans complain about nationalized industries in other countries.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#48

Post by burntsushi »

rdtsc wrote: post #23
w1ntermute wrote: post #6

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

Americans (and I am painting with a very wide brush here) I find are very authoritarian. For all the propaganda about freedom, independence, personal rights and property, they are very willing to support authority, very obedient, and most of all would not lift a finger to protect or step up if they see authority overstepping its bounds. As a bit of a background, I grew in a former communist dictatorship so I am famil…

You're absolutely on the mark. I can't tell you how often I hear something to the tune of, "Just do what your told" or "They're just trying to help people." I cringe every time I hear it.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#49

Post by kzrdude »

rdtsc wrote: post #23
w1ntermute wrote: post #6

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

Americans (and I am painting with a very wide brush here) I find are very authoritarian. For all the propaganda about freedom, independence, personal rights and property, they are very willing to support authority, very obedient, and most of all would not lift a finger to protect or step up if they see authority overstepping its bounds. As a bit of a background, I grew in a former communist dictatorship so I am famil…

I think we can go wider: the americans are only humans. We can all have these tendencies.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#50

Post by ibejoeb »

cj wrote: post #40

I really don't like most of the TSA's procedures either, but watching the hidden camera video, it seems like the OP went in to the situation expecting to have an issue with the TSA. If you approach the TSA adversarially, it's logical that they'd respond unpleasantly. OP: In a patronizing tone : "You're required to accept it, and to screen it. You have the means available to screen it, namely xray and explosive trace…

He does expect to have a problem, and he documented it.

It's not a hidden camera. He tells them he's recording.

It's not okay to mischaracterize the situation.

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