Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

riskybusinessblog.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 102 posts

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#91

Post by xenophanes »

sethg wrote: post #88
xenophanes wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not addressing the issue of victimless crimes. Do you think Rand supported victimless crimes? I am not advocating Rand's works be public domain, or be free to all. I'm advocating that harmless copying take place, only. To start with, can you see how there could ever be a case of harmless copying? a: i was harmed. c: how? a: my rights were violated. c: how? a: a young child with no money downloaded and read my…

To the best of my knowledge, when a copyrighted work is made available for free over the Internet, it's available for free to everyone . Nobody has to prove that they are so destitute that they could not possibly afford to pay even one cent for the work before they are allowed to download it. So your hypothetical case of a child with no money downloading the book is a red herring.

When a work is posted online, it makes possible both harmful and harmless copying.

In other words, people can use it for good or bad.

That's no reason not to post it. No one should use it for bad. If they do, they are responsible.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#92

Post by xenophanes »

AlisdairO wrote: post #82
xenophanes wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose a person agrees about property rights in general, but believes certain circumstances are extenuating. None of the quotes you provide argue that he is wrong. Rand could have agreed with him. It simply doesn't say, either way. One such extenuating circumstance might be this: no harm is done to the property owner. Then if there is a crime, it is a victimless crime. A libertarian like Rand or myself might think i…

The concept of a victimless crime is difficult: let's say we have a kid with no money. Currently, pretty much the default route for that kid to get music is to simply pirate it. In the past, a music-loving kid might have done extra chores, got a paper route, or whatever to earn some extra cash and buy the item. The fact that someone has no money now is no indication that they wouldn't buy something if they had no oth…

I don't see how "the law needs to be enforceable" can be an anti-torrent position. Shutting down torrent sites isn't working out so well. They just provide information, like Google. The actual people doing file transfers are the ones who ought to be in trouble, but that's even less enforceable.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#93

Post by Hast »

paulgb wrote: post #44

Apologies for being slightly off topic, but since there are a number of Atlas Shrugged readers here, I have a question: Is it worth reading? Most discussion about the book seems to be about Objectivism in general, understandably. But aside from the philosophy of the book, is it an entertaining or interesting read? (or is that like the quotation asking "Otherwise, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?") I generally like to…

I think it's a better idea to read one of the shorter books first (IIRC the Fountainhead is pretty short). Atlas Shrugged could be cut down to about half the size and make the point it's trying to make better (by virtue of being more concise).

Personally I find it fascinating that the characters in the book (and Ayn Rand) constantly reiterate that "decisions should be made on logic and rationality instead of emotions" but the entire book is driven by pathos instead of any logical argument.

All the "good guys and gals" and smart, beautiful and horny. All the bad guys are ugly and stupid. They constantly use tautologies ("A is A") as if it was a way to debate with logic (it's not). And it never provides any attempt to prove that the entire premise is true or even feasible. Say what you want about Karl Marx but he did at least attempt to make a rational argument.

All that said you may still enjoy the book. Personally I've read a lot other books which make the same, or similar, point but better. Animal Farm springs to mind (no, it's not about objectivism, but it is about how power corrupts people, or animals).

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#94

Post by run4yourlives »

ams6110 wrote: post #42
run4yourlives wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a valid enough point that a lack of regulation caused many of the current woes in the US, regardless of whether or not I happen to agree with it. Hell, I'll even give you supporting evidence: Canada. Not a single bad bank.

Did Canada push its banks to give mortgages to people who could not afford them?

Actually, if you look at the history, you'll see that many in the Canadian government and the banks themselves felt that they were missing out on all the great action that US banks were able to get in on. It was the prudence of the government of the time that saved them. If it was left up to them, the banks up here would be in the same state as American banks.

To suggest however that the government somehow forced American banks to lend to people that didn't deserve it against the bank's better judgment is garbage. That doesn't explain half of the EU's current problem.

No, the one exception between Canada and the rest of the world right now is that we have tighter regulations on our banking sector.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#95

Post by endtime »

xenophanes wrote: post #61
endtime wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without moralizing...if you're linking to TPB rather than Amazon, I don't really think you absorbed Rand's message. (Yes, I know Danneskjold was a pirate, but he was (effectively) stealing tax money and returning it to those who were taxed.)

Can you link to an article by the Ayn Rand Institute, or similar, saying why piracy is wrong and a fan of Rand must oppose it? I didn't find anything either way in a few seconds on Google.

Well, I'm not sure, but I think too much emphasis got put on TPB in my message. I mean, based on my own understanding I don't think Rand would approve of people getting the full benefit of her work without people paying. But I also think she would have tremendous respect and appreciation for Amazon.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#96

Post by AlisdairO »

xenophanes wrote: post #92
AlisdairO wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of a victimless crime is difficult: let's say we have a kid with no money. Currently, pretty much the default route for that kid to get music is to simply pirate it. In the past, a music-loving kid might have done extra chores, got a paper route, or whatever to earn some extra cash and buy the item. The fact that someone has no money now is no indication that they wouldn't buy something if they had no oth…

I don't see how "the law needs to be enforceable" can be an anti-torrent position. Shutting down torrent sites isn't working out so well. They just provide information, like Google. The actual people doing file transfers are the ones who ought to be in trouble, but that's even less enforceable.

It is enforceable. I agree that it's hard or impossible for rights holders to effectively defend their IP in the current environment, but it wouldn't be all that hard for governments to make torrenting too much like hard work for the average individual. Of course, this rightly entails questions about whether defending the IP is worth it, but that's a different issue.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#97

Post by shrughes »

Automatt-2 wrote: post #56
viggity wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're sorely mistaken if you think that the economics of the US are anywhere near what Rand would consider to be Capitalism. Have you even read her books?

Enlightened self interest doesn't work on a scale necessary for a civilization to function. Every nation that has next to no government and every man is free to do with his life as he wishes is a giant shithole that teeters in and out of revolution. Want to see objectivism at work? Go visit Somalia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo. In those countries every man is free to pursue "... his own happiness as the mo…

Rand wasn't an anarchocapitalist.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#98

Post by unalone »

3pt14159 wrote: post #85
unalone wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let me clarify, because I like The Fountainhead much more. But you make a very good point. The Fountainhead is the better book. It's better edited, the characters are better, and the plot is much more secure. Atlas Shrugged isn't nearly as good if you don't have Roark and Toohey and Dominique fixed in your mind, because Rand doesn't spend time making her characters realistic in Atlas . She just assumes that you…

When I was 19 I first came across an Ayn Rand quote about subsidies. It so perfectly captured my own views that I went to the campus library and asked for the largest fiction book by Ayn Rand. So I started off reading Atlas Shrugged with nothing more than a single quote on a single topic by her. The first 25 pages were BRUTAL, but after that I was hooked. I finished the book in less than a week then bought the book f…

You might find that The Fountainhead still has a lot to offer you.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#99

Post by unalone »

grandalf wrote: post #80
unalone wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let me clarify, because I like The Fountainhead much more. But you make a very good point. The Fountainhead is the better book. It's better edited, the characters are better, and the plot is much more secure. Atlas Shrugged isn't nearly as good if you don't have Roark and Toohey and Dominique fixed in your mind, because Rand doesn't spend time making her characters realistic in Atlas . She just assumes that you…

I thought Atlas Shrugged was better, clearer, and a more focused novel of ideas with fewer distractions. Both were great, though.

It's better in terms of encapsulating her philosophy. However, it's a worse story, the characters are more shallow (and the more interesting ones, like Fred Kinnan, get lip service at most), and the writing is atrocious at points. It deserves the satires of it, because it's got a lot of weak points.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#100

Post by unalone »

ojbyrne wrote: post #48
gfodor wrote: post #8

Everyone who I know that's read Atlas Shrugged (including myself) turned into a selfish jerk for at least a month after reading it. God help us if the "Ayn Rand temporary jerk phenomenon" is unleashed through movie theaters all at once. It's a good book but like anything else people extrapolate the points beyond recognition and additionally interpret it to re-enforce their own views, regardless of how unreasonable th…

Of course you mean everyone you know who actually liked the book. I didn't much like it, I like style, and there wasn't much of that. And, of course, I read "The Grapes of Wrath" right before - two polemics from opposite points of the political spectrum, but Steinbeck can actually compose a sentence.

Agh, really? Steinbeck in that novel comes across as incredibly shallow. I thought his style was painfully overwrought.
Post reply on HN