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With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

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Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#61

Post by xenophanes »

endtime wrote: post #57
xenophanes wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Then less people will watch it.

Without moralizing...if you're linking to TPB rather than Amazon, I don't really think you absorbed Rand's message. (Yes, I know Danneskjold was a pirate, but he was (effectively) stealing tax money and returning it to those who were taxed.)

Can you link to an article by the Ayn Rand Institute, or similar, saying why piracy is wrong and a fan of Rand must oppose it?

I didn't find anything either way in a few seconds on Google.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#62

Post by mattchew »

I was scanning and did a double take on this part:

"A high net-worth individual with whom the Baldwins have partnered"

For a moment I thought they were talking about Alec Baldwin and his brothers as producers. My Imp of the Perverse is sadly disappointed that it isn't so.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#63

Post by chops »

xenophanes wrote: post #61
endtime wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without moralizing...if you're linking to TPB rather than Amazon, I don't really think you absorbed Rand's message. (Yes, I know Danneskjold was a pirate, but he was (effectively) stealing tax money and returning it to those who were taxed.)

Can you link to an article by the Ayn Rand Institute, or similar, saying why piracy is wrong and a fan of Rand must oppose it? I didn't find anything either way in a few seconds on Google.

Piracy is a concept that relies on the concept Intellectual Property.

From: http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/patentsandcopyrights.html

Patents and copyrights are the legal implementation of the base of all property rights: a man’s right to the product of his mind.

...

But what the patent or copyright protects is not the physical object as such, but the idea which it embodies. By forbidding an unauthorized reproduction of the object, the law declares, in effect, that the physical labor of copying is not the source of the object’s value, that that value is created by the originator of the idea and may not be used without his consent; thus the law establishes the property right of a mind to that which it has brought into existence.

...

The government does not _grant_ a patent or copyright, in the sense of a gift, privilege, or favor; the government merely _secures it_ i.e., the government certifies the origination of an idea and protects its owner’s exclusive right of use and disposal.

Piracy constitutes "unauthorized reproduction" and such falls under the above passage. Thus, it is with great irony that one would advocate pirating the works of Ayn Rand.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#64

Post by chops »

jibiki wrote: post #53
paulgb wrote: post #44

Apologies for being slightly off topic, but since there are a number of Atlas Shrugged readers here, I have a question: Is it worth reading? Most discussion about the book seems to be about Objectivism in general, understandably. But aside from the philosophy of the book, is it an entertaining or interesting read? (or is that like the quotation asking "Otherwise, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?") I generally like to…

It's a fun read, but it drags a bit towards the end. My gut feeling is that if you enjoyed Dune, then you would probably like Atlas Shrugged.

I loved Atlas Shrugged (though it did take me a while to complete the speech), and coincidentally, I'm working on Dune right now, but I'm honestly struggling, and I haven't even reached page 100 yet.

It's just a little slow for me. Though having seen the movie and the miniseries, and knowing a fair bit of the Dune lore may be taking some of the "discovery" out of it.

Except for the speech, I didn't think Atlas Shrugged was slow at all, just LONG

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#65

Post by xenophanes »

chops wrote: post #63
xenophanes wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to an article by the Ayn Rand Institute, or similar, saying why piracy is wrong and a fan of Rand must oppose it? I didn't find anything either way in a few seconds on Google.

Piracy is a concept that relies on the concept Intellectual Property. From: http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/patentsandcopyrights.html Patents and copyrights are the legal implementation of the base of all property rights: a man’s right to the product of his mind. ... But what the patent or copyright protects is not the physical object as such, but the idea which it embodies. By forbidding an unauthorized reproducti…

Suppose a person agrees about property rights in general, but believes certain circumstances are extenuating.

None of the quotes you provide argue that he is wrong. Rand could have agreed with him. It simply doesn't say, either way.

One such extenuating circumstance might be this: no harm is done to the property owner. Then if there is a crime, it is a victimless crime. A libertarian like Rand or myself might think in that case it's really none of the property owner's business, since it has no negative effect on him.

Not all downloads are harmless, but some are. Property rights advocates can disagree about how many. The passages you quote don't say where Rand stands on this.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#66

Post by jacoblyles »

gfodor wrote: post #8

Everyone who I know that's read Atlas Shrugged (including myself) turned into a selfish jerk for at least a month after reading it. God help us if the "Ayn Rand temporary jerk phenomenon" is unleashed through movie theaters all at once. It's a good book but like anything else people extrapolate the points beyond recognition and additionally interpret it to re-enforce their own views, regardless of how unreasonable th…

I said something similar on the last Ayn Rand thread, and indeed these threads do start to sound repetitive.

I read literally hundreds of books in school with socialist, feminist, existentialist, collectivist, or fatalist themes. I read exactly one author in all of American literature with the theme that an individual could shape his own destiny and that capitalism (you know, that evil economic system that has sort of created unprecedented global prosperity) is okay. That author is Ayn Rand.

I was an obnoxious Randroid for awhile. But Ayn gave me the ability to stand up for myself intellectually, to question establishment ethics and politics, and to eventually question and reject her. I think that's a valuable experience for a young person to have.

I suppose my parents thought I was a "selfish jerk" when, after reading The Fountainhead, I ginned up the strength to leave the religion that made me depressed and a little suicidal in my youth. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

In my mind, the inventors of the computer revolution did more good for humanity than all the starry-eyed kids going into the Peace Corps or working soup kitchens. How often is a teenager going to hear that? It's certainly against establishment ethics. It's not something that you can safely assert in mixed company. People will label you a sociopath if you state it. But I think it's true.

Is the worldview of myself and Ayn so dangerous that people should be completely shielded from it? If so, watch out for this movie. If it's done right, it's going to fill lots of heads with dangerous ideas.

Personally, I like dangerous ideas. I think we could use more of them. When people's minds are filled with safe ones, the intellectual climate stagnates.

Lastly, to those who say her characters are not believable, I reply that neither were the characters in the movie "300". This isn't Hemmingway. She has her own style. You hate her politics so you're saying she's a bad author. Admit it and we can discuss the real issues.

I've yet to find one person that says "I think Ayn makes some great points, but I really think she writes like crap". Rather, it is usually "Ayn is a hateful and evil person. And besides, her books are total crap. Nobody should ever read her works for any reason."

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#67

Post by chops »

xenophanes wrote: post #65
chops wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piracy is a concept that relies on the concept Intellectual Property. From: http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/patentsandcopyrights.html Patents and copyrights are the legal implementation of the base of all property rights: a man’s right to the product of his mind. ... But what the patent or copyright protects is not the physical object as such, but the idea which it embodies. By forbidding an unauthorized reproducti…

Suppose a person agrees about property rights in general, but believes certain circumstances are extenuating. None of the quotes you provide argue that he is wrong. Rand could have agreed with him. It simply doesn't say, either way. One such extenuating circumstance might be this: no harm is done to the property owner. Then if there is a crime, it is a victimless crime. A libertarian like Rand or myself might think i…

Of course they don't discuss internet downloading, these essays were published in the 60s, and she died in 82.

What she does mention is "unauthorized reproductions" of which piracy is explicitly. Once something is in the public domain, then it can be freely copied without anyone's permission, but until then, it remains an unauthorized copy.

The movie in question is still protected under copyright.

If you want to talk IP durations, then that's a different discussion altogether. What stands is that your original post advocates the unauthorized copying of a work still under protection of copyright, in this case, of a Warner Bros IP.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#69

Post by xenophanes »

chops wrote: post #67
xenophanes wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose a person agrees about property rights in general, but believes certain circumstances are extenuating. None of the quotes you provide argue that he is wrong. Rand could have agreed with him. It simply doesn't say, either way. One such extenuating circumstance might be this: no harm is done to the property owner. Then if there is a crime, it is a victimless crime. A libertarian like Rand or myself might think i…

Of course they don't discuss internet downloading, these essays were published in the 60s, and she died in 82. What she does mention is "unauthorized reproductions" of which piracy is explicitly. Once something is in the public domain , then it can be freely copied without anyone's permission, but until then, it remains an unauthorized copy. The movie in question is still protected under copyright. If you want to tal…

You have not addressed the issue of a victimless crime.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#70

Post by chops »

xenophanes wrote: post #69
chops wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they don't discuss internet downloading, these essays were published in the 60s, and she died in 82. What she does mention is "unauthorized reproductions" of which piracy is explicitly. Once something is in the public domain , then it can be freely copied without anyone's permission, but until then, it remains an unauthorized copy. The movie in question is still protected under copyright. If you want to tal…

You have not addressed the issue of a victimless crime.

The victim is the copyright holder. Just because someone doesn't wish to buy a movie (book, song, whatever), doesn't give them the authority to copy it.
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