Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

pastebin.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 182 posts

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#101

Post by michaelochurch »

tptacek wrote: post #87
michaelochurch wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about what to do in rare but extremely bad situations where there are literally no good avenues... not what people should do in normal circumstances. "Extortion" was too strong a word. I meant it in the sense of "aggressive negotiation". Demanding a positive reference not to blow something humiliating is not extortion. If you demand money not to blow something, you're breaking the law, because there's n…

Demanding, using "strong negotiation", a positive reference from somebody to whom you lied about your criminal status seems like a good way to get a billboard erected with your face and a URL to your LinkedIn profile on 101. This isn't the first HN comment you've left where you suggested playing hardball to get positive references from employers. You have an idiosyncratic view of the dynamics of employee references.…

If there's no severance, then I'd expect a solid-gold reference, yes. With appropriate severance, the neutral name-and-dates is fine.

A bad reference is an existential battle. You do everything you can to fight that. However, pushing neutral to good is generally a waste of time. Dust yourself off, get clean, and move on.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#102

Post by georgemcbay »

Though it is impossible to quantify, I think as a society we're probably starting to lose a lot of potentially great second acts from people who made early mistakes due to the way everything is tracked, monitored, and easily searchable these days.

I wish I had some good practical advice on this subject, but my only advice would be things already said here: freelance, or stick to companies small enough that there isn't much HR bureaucracy in place yet.

FWIW, in my teenage years (I'll be 40 this year) I did quite a lot of "freelance, unofficial security work" and I know a lot of other people who did, some of whom are relatively famous (within certain communities anyway) who did the same and pretty much the only difference between them/me and you is not getting caught, or being located in a jurisdiction that didn't care enough to press charges at the time. So good luck, man.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#103

Post by felonyquestions »

ebbv wrote: post #57

After almost 20 years in the industry my considered advice is pursue another career. That might not be the answer you want to hear but after thinking about it a bit that's my honest advice. Here's the reasons: - Of all the employers I've had not one of them would have hired you. - If somehow you "snuck in" and your past came to light, you would have been fired anywhere I've worked. - Unless I knew you really well per…

I have to respectfully disagree. At least the OP has a foot in the door in this field. Moving on to something else would mean starting at the bottom, yet having the same obstacles to overcome.

Some jobs are simply closed off. No way around it. Why hire a felon when you can hire any other equally (based off paper and salary requirements) qualified candidate? Government restrictions may preclude him as well.

If you are basing your options only on your history, then you have to find a career where your history doesn't hurt you. This means applying for jobs that felons apply for. You've done a year in jail, you know the embarassing(to society) level of education of most inmates. I don't think this is really a route you would want to consider.

Don't give up. You will have to work hard, sure. Harder than most. Which is a good quality to have when you find the right position.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#104

Post by tptacek »

michaelochurch wrote: post #101
tptacek wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demanding, using "strong negotiation", a positive reference from somebody to whom you lied about your criminal status seems like a good way to get a billboard erected with your face and a URL to your LinkedIn profile on 101. This isn't the first HN comment you've left where you suggested playing hardball to get positive references from employers. You have an idiosyncratic view of the dynamics of employee references.…

If there's no severance, then I'd expect a solid-gold reference, yes. With appropriate severance, the neutral name-and-dates is fine. A bad reference is an existential battle. You do everything you can to fight that. However, pushing neutral to good is generally a waste of time. Dust yourself off, get clean, and move on.

I am no kind of authority, so please don't take this comment any further than the actual words in the comment box. In particular, I have never worked with you, or anyone who has worked with you; I don't even know what you do (I'm sure it's something interesting and challenging). You're an abstraction to me. I cannot possibly have any opinion about the advisability of employing you and am only sharing my opinion about the ideas you are expressing.

What I have to say about your perspective on references is that I will never, under any circumstances, work with, for, or over someone who believes what I think you're saying you believe about references. "Bad reference => war", to me, is essentially an endorsement of professional dishonesty.

Negotiating over the quality of your reference is to me a bit squicky, but it's on the right side of the line, just a couple steps past coaching your references (which is also white-lie dishonest]). Using aggressive negotiation tactics to ensure good references from people who don't believe your work merits a good reference is on the wrong side of the line. You think it's a concession you're extracting from your former employer, but it is really a concession you are surreptitiously taking from your future employer.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#105

Post by largesse »

I'd like a lawyer to explain the legal distinction between a felony and a misdemeanor. Over my lifetime it seems that the the number of felonies has grown enormously and many of them don't seem to be for offenses that have much harm relative to many misdemeanor offenses.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#106

Post by michaelochurch »

tptacek wrote: post #93
rms wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminal prosecution for fraud? Does that really happen with any regularity? I think by far the most common consequence of being caught lying about a felony is firing with cause.

I'm not a lawyer but I think a fraud prosecution is very unlikely. However, there are a bunch of torts involved. The real consequence I'm referring to here though is a firing for cause. Real for-cause firings are rare in our business, so I think we tend to forget that they are a big deal.

The major consequence of "termination for cause" is that you don't get severance, and the company will probably fight unemployment claims.

I grant you that if he gets fired over this, he shouldn't expect a package. His life is already in a state of fucked-up-ness that is beyond worrying about that he might get fired without severance. He needs to get a job, first and foremost. Severance is almost a Maserati problem, where he is.

Right now, severance is nice to have but not a huge deal. Fifteen years from now when he's getting large (~1 year) contractual severances due to being in highly strategic roles-- he can be cut for reasons that aren't his fault, and job searches take years at his level-- he will want to start coming clean about the felony. By that time, he'll have a track record and can come clean because no one will care about a 15-20+ year old felony conviction.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#107

Post by alt2319 »

felonyquestions wrote: post #40

Hi, I've had a felony for over 8 years now, and have been working as a developer almost the entire time. I've only been asked to disclose that information once, and I did. While the company had questions, they didn't seem to care very much (note: I don't recommend telling anyone. If you're a great employee and a mistake from your youth discounts you from a job, it's a lose-lose. But I did tell, so... ). College? They…

I can "ditto" most of that. I've had a federal felony conviction for computer fraud (against an ex-employer) for over 10 years now and have been employed for most of that time. I was terminated as soon as my case hit the news media, but I was able to find contract work with friends before my sentencing. I was able to pay my restitution in full, which really sucked financially, but was a great feeling and something I'm still proud to tell people. Not long after my probation ended, they offered to hire me full-time at a significant raise. They never did a background check.

Since then I survived two corporate acquisitions, multiple new bosses, new CEOs, etc. Every time I sweated it out waiting to see if my background would come up. I actually heard about conversations with two incoming CEOs about me and both basically responded "he's paid his debts" or something similar. They didn't really care as long as I was trouble-free since then and had been working hard.

I finally got laid off with quite a few others after almost 10 years there. I have a few different friends that know my background that would love to hire me for their growing startups, but instead I finally started my own mobile app company and have grown it to almost paying all of our bills. In the app store, nobody even needs to knows your name.

You can look at some of my post history here for advice, but in general, you need to expand your circle of friends as much as possible and let them know you are looking for work. Volunteer at things and go to meetups and developer user groups. There will always be people and companies that will refuse to hire you, but there are a decent percentage that will hire you. You just need to increase the number of people you know and the number of potential job openings.

I should also add that I've had almost no issues volunteering for many different organizations that require background checks. I just disclose my background and write an explanation. It sucks every time, but I've never been turned down. I've coached sports at the YMCA, led scouts, taught Sunday school for kids, etc. Every one of those has built my personal character references as well.

I also made a point of being very active online with my real name. Now when someone Googles me, they have to dig through many pages of material to find any press coverage of my conviction.

Just hang it there and keep chipping away at it. I used to think about my conviction every single day. Now I can go a week or more without even remembering it.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#108

Post by tptacek »

michaelochurch wrote: post #106
tptacek wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer but I think a fraud prosecution is very unlikely. However, there are a bunch of torts involved. The real consequence I'm referring to here though is a firing for cause. Real for-cause firings are rare in our business, so I think we tend to forget that they are a big deal.

The major consequence of "termination for cause" is that you don't get severance, and the company will probably fight unemployment claims. I grant you that if he gets fired over this, he shouldn't expect a package. His life is already in a state of fucked-up-ness that is beyond worrying about that he might get fired without severance. He needs to get a job, first and foremost. Severance is almost a Maserati problem,…

You are providing what I believe to be --- pragmatically --- terrible advice in this thread. It is not impossible to find employment in tech with a felony conviction; in fact, by all outward appearances, the opposite is true; people with CFAA convictions are employed at a rate higher than that of the overall population; they are, as a general rule, employed.

What you're saying is that you think the job market is so inhospitable to people with criminal convictions that they should endanger their career to weasel their way into jobs. We could debate how unwise that advice was if you were right about the employment market. But you're wrong about the employment market, which makes the risk/reward on what you're suggesting so far out of whack that your suggestion isn't worth entertaining.

I don't have strong opinions about what you do with a prospective employer who at no point asks you about your criminal record. But if you're asked about it, you're crazy if you lie.

Again, let me (tediously) repeat that I don't know you personally; you happen to spend a decent number of words on HN articulating ideas that I find worth disputing, but on the street I wouldn't know you from Adam and I have no issue with you personally.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#109

Post by michaelochurch »

tptacek wrote: post #91
michaelochurch wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reasons of self-interest, most employers are not going to fuck with their exes' reputations after parting ways. There are exceptions-- sometimes you have to hire legal professionals and very occasionally one might have to hire il legal professionals to make someone do the right thing-- but those are way outside of the norm. If he does good work and still gets fired, it's probably by a boss who had little choice i…

You seem very certain about this. I don't know if I'm as certain as you are about this issue, but my thoughts about this issue have opposite valence.

Unfortunately, we're talking about situations of depravity over which there are practical and ethical reasons why data collection is not possible. One falls into them very rarely, and hopefully never.

I've never done most of this extremely chaotic shit that I endorse, but I think it's important to have the ethical conversations to shine some light on to things that actually go on.

Societies like to see themselves as existential struggles between lawful good and chaotic evil, but neither of those are major players. (Lawful good is too restrained; chaotic evil is too maladjusted to have a chance unless the world's already fucked.) The real battle is between chaotic good and lawful evil. So excuse my chaos. :)

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#110

Post by tptacek »

michaelochurch wrote: post #109
tptacek wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem very certain about this. I don't know if I'm as certain as you are about this issue, but my thoughts about this issue have opposite valence.

Unfortunately, we're talking about situations of depravity over which there are practical and ethical reasons why data collection is not possible. One falls into them very rarely, and hopefully never. I've never done most of this extremely chaotic shit that I endorse, but I think it's important to have the ethical conversations to shine some light on to things that actually go on. Societies like to see themselves as…

Then add to the problems I have with the very bad advice you're giving on this thread that this is a game or an intellectual exercise for you, and a lasting painful career-threatening injury to anyone who takes that advice.

Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just told them in the first place.

Like you, I have a lot of sympathy for people stuck with criminal convictions. We agree there. We'd both like to find advice to help people get excellent jobs despite stupid criminal convictions. My problem with your advice isn't with its intentions, but rather that I'm pretty sure it's dumb.

Post reply on HN