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How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

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Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#161

Post by VikingCoder »

potatolicious wrote: post #107
VikingCoder wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. I think those are unrelated concepts. I think connecting with the right pool of talent is an art, and a lot of shops are completely artless. > It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never worked at a company that felt like we couldn't take our pick of applicants. Especi…

I'll be somewhat blunt - but this isn't meant as disrespect for you. The software industry is highly bimodal. There are two very, very clear camps - you fall into the other camp than most HNers. The market for mid-top end talent is a huge sellers market. There aren't enough people to go around, salaries inflate double-digit percentages every year, and crazily does not seem to be stopping. The market for low-end warm-…

I'll note that the salaries at some of the top companies have not been inflating that much. For them, it's a Buyer's Market. Like I said, perhaps I've been lucky with the companies I've worked at, and didn't even realize how fortunate I was.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#162

Post by vinceguidry »

derefr wrote: post #113
edw519 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I purposely didn't include any of yours. Why? 1. Mine are issues and yours are details. If my 10 are satisfactory, I can live with your 9, even though some may not be satisfactory. But if you 9 are good and my 10 aren't, I'd last about a year before moving on because of lack of meaning. 2. Mine are about them, yours are about you. 3. Mine show interest in the big picture; yours could easily paint you as a demanding n…

> 2. Mine are about them, yours are about you. Well, yes. As a non-equity employee, why should you care about "them", other than how you'll come out of working for them five years down the line? Will you have enjoyed your time there? Will you have grown as a developer? "Creating something meaningful" only only really affects the lives of employees inasmuch as they now have something out there in the world that they c…

> Well, yes. As a non-equity employee, why should you care about "them", other than how you'll come out of working for them five years down the line?

Because when you work at a company you don't care for, you are contributing to a toxic environment, which can hurt your career prospects much more than a sub-par salary, by making you caustic and bitter. If you come out of a job in anything other than high spirits, that will subconsciously, but seriously, hurt you in your hunt for the next job.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#163

Post by VikingCoder »

vinceguidry wrote: post #124
VikingCoder wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. I think those are unrelated concepts. I think connecting with the right pool of talent is an art, and a lot of shops are completely artless. > It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never worked at a company that felt like we couldn't take our pick of applicants. Especi…

> So, as a Buyer, they had a line of candidates applying. Most of their problem was probably announcing to the world that they had an open position that people should know to apply to. That sounds like a Buyer's Market to me. Choice isn't all there is to it. Let's say you're at a grocery store to get onions, but all the onions you see are terrible but really cheap. Being a discerning buyer, you decide to hit the next…

> so you could get them at bargain rates.

I think when you look at the DJIA, companies really are getting developers at bargain rates.

How much revenue do you think the top 30% of software companies are earning, versus how much they're paying their top talent?

> I also think you might be misreading the fact that the company you work for is letting open positions sit.

They're not - they're filling as quickly as we want them to. That's a Buyer's Market.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#164

Post by VikingCoder »

zanny wrote: post #144
VikingCoder wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire country graduated less than 10k people from CS programs in 2010. I've gotten into a debate with some friends about this: a degree on a resume is really great, but it's not necessary for the vast majority of programming jobs. > helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits I hear that driving a truck in the North Dakota oil boom can earn you $150k, to start. Even in a Buyer's Market, you have…

> You just told me that CS graduates can still be completely incompetent, but then you expressed surprise that apparently degrees don't matter that much any more. =) In his defense, and as a recent grad with my CS degree this last year, the curriculum doesn't really sell itself at all for professional software development. Knowing algorithms / language theory / OS theory / theory in general doesn't mean you can throw…

> the curriculum doesn't really sell itself at all for professional software development

Oh, I completely agree. It's a Liberal Art, essentially. As opposed to a Trade School. I'm a huge fan of a liberal arts education, and I think the background of a Computer Science degree is fantastic, but I can't lie to myself that it's necessary.

I think the future is more mentorship, and once someone is a bit established in their career, that they will take continuing Liberal Arts education to improve themselves.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#165

Post by [deleted] »

VikingCoder wrote: post #105
dangrossman wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? Outside of the tech hub cities, yes, it can be very hard. Even just an hour out of Philadelphia, helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits (well above average in their area), there were very few applicants and fewer actually qualified to do any professional programming. It took almost a year to fill a single developer position. Pr…

> The entire country graduated less than 10k people from CS programs in 2010. I've gotten into a debate with some friends about this: a degree on a resume is really great, but it's not necessary for the vast majority of programming jobs. > helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits I hear that driving a truck in the North Dakota oil boom can earn you $150k, to start. Even in a Buyer's Market, you have…

[deleted]

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#166

Post by vinceguidry »

zanny wrote: post #139
potatolicious wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be somewhat blunt - but this isn't meant as disrespect for you. The software industry is highly bimodal. There are two very, very clear camps - you fall into the other camp than most HNers. The market for mid-top end talent is a huge sellers market. There aren't enough people to go around, salaries inflate double-digit percentages every year, and crazily does not seem to be stopping. The market for low-end warm-…

I agree on the two camps ideology, and this is HN after all, so I'll ask - how to you get into the sellers market? I graduated with my CS degree with an ok 3.4 GPA recently, and I cast a wide net on jobs from Django to openCL, but everywhere I apply I either get cold shoulders, a 30 minute phone interview that never gets a response even with follow up, or rejection on a lack of project experience. I've been working F…

Get very smart about who you apply to. Seriously, stop responding to ads right now and spend the next week studying job postings. Look carefully at every statement. Ask yourself, "why would someone put this in a job posting?" Don't just assume you know, think about it and ask yourself if there's something you missed. Memorize the posting, before you reply.

Then when you finally answer the ad, you'll be so far inside the person's head that it will look like God himself sent them the PERFECT candidate.

You need to be patient and to sharply cut down on the number of ads you're answering. So pick the good ones, the ads that look like they were written by engineers. The ones where you can see the thought processes of the people hiring.

In my job search, I sent out exactly one reply to exactly one ad, to the company that hired me.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#167

Post by rhizome »

chollida1 wrote: post #58
csmatt wrote: post #27

Excellent! Very well written and expressed. There was an interviewee here today and I heard my boss tell someone to quiz him on big-o notation. I rolled my eyes. Yesterday I had an interview that started off with "Tell me a bit about yourself." No direction as to what the interviewer wanted and, the worst part, as soon as I said I was done, he went right into asking me what the difference between "overloading" and "o…

> Yesterday I had an interview that started off with "Tell me a bit about yourself." To be fair, alot of well meaning interviewers start off that way. It's supposed to be a chance for you to mention all the good things that we may not ask about. In fact that question is so common its a good weeder question; if a person can't blow your socks off with 5 minutes then you can probably predict how the rest of the intervie…

if a person can't blow your socks off with 5 minutes then you can probably predict how the rest of the interview will go.

Is this really true? I think if you turn it around you wouldn't agree with it so readily: if a person can blow your socks off in 5min, then you can predict how the rest of the interview will go." Well then why have the rest of the interview, or if the rest of the interview is still necessary, why go through the 5min pitch rigamarole? Why not just shave those 5min off the whole interview? Why not send the candidate on their way after they don't do their pitch-intro well? These are all rhetorical questions, but you see how I'm following the logic in your statement. I'm not judging either way, but hey, could it work any worse than the processes elsewhere described?

Heck, I wonder how a company would do if they gave the candidate 5min for whatever with the significant coworkers of the position, then take a vote from the interviewers and just hire based on the victors. Interviewers can do culture or technical interactions, doesn't matter, if they feel good about the person then they vote to hire. I guess it's like Speed Dating this way, but still.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#168

Post by prophetjohn »

pkteison wrote: post #54
hack_edu wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tip: When hiring engineers (or speaking to any anyone ever again) NEVER use the word 'grok.'

Why? It has a more clear meaning than just 'understand', and a 'huh' response should be a pretty good filter for an unsuitable candidate.

Wait, not knowing what "grok" means is a "pretty good" filter for a person who is unsuitable for a role as software engineer?

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#169

Post by Falling3 »

TheMakeA wrote: post #135
Falling3 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard various numbers like this thrown around, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it could possibly be that high. Is that figure coming from personal experience? I also struggle with that idea since I'm very capable of programming fizzbuzz and a lot more, but am still having a problem finding a new position.

I'm in the same boat here. It makes me wonder if I am doing something so terribly wrong that I am somehow being lumped into the same group as people who can't code. Want to exchange e-mails and chat about it?

Yes, definitely - anthonysdesimone (at) gmail (dot) com

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#170

Post by derefr »

vinceguidry wrote: post #162
derefr wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Mine are about them, yours are about you. Well, yes. As a non-equity employee, why should you care about "them", other than how you'll come out of working for them five years down the line? Will you have enjoyed your time there? Will you have grown as a developer? "Creating something meaningful" only only really affects the lives of employees inasmuch as they now have something out there in the world that they c…

> Well, yes. As a non-equity employee, why should you care about "them", other than how you'll come out of working for them five years down the line? Because when you work at a company you don't care for, you are contributing to a toxic environment, which can hurt your career prospects much more than a sub-par salary, by making you caustic and bitter. If you come out of a job in anything other than high spirits, that…

I didn't say you should work at a company you don't care for. I meant that "whether the company does something I care about" will be, for most every employee, an instrumental value in their utility calculations, not a terminal value. You'll care about it, but you'll care because of what's in it for you.
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