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How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

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Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#51
post #23

How to hire me: 1. Tell me about the 3 biggest things you must accomplish. 2. Tell me why you must accomplish them. 3. Tell me when you must accomplish them by. 4. Tell me how you intend to accomplish them. 5. Tell me what you're already doing to accomplish them. 6. Tell me the role you envision me playing in accomplishing them. 7. Tell me what you expect from me. 8. Put me with some of the key people already working…

(The following is made up and CERTAINLY isn't for the job I currently have open for a senior PHP dev in Melbourne.AU) Here's why you don't see question one answered honestly: A. Our sales guys sold our product based on feature "Foo" a year ago. We haven't started coding but they need a demo next week. You have to grok our codebase and write it on your first day. B. The 'Bar' feature was written by a guy who should ha…

Tip:

When hiring engineers (or speaking to any anyone ever again) NEVER use the word 'grok.'

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, 6 & 7 are the same. And I think you meant Thai, not Chinese.

They're almost the same, and it probably wasn't intentional, but they're worded differently enough that you might get some surprising answers from someone if you ask them a few questions apart.

Actually, I think they are pretty different. I've never seen Tom Yum Goong at a Chinese buffet.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#53

I can't even begin to describe how worthless I think most coding interviews are. Here's a contrived problem, that will never come up in our work. Now solve it by writing your code by hand without a compiler or any other tools that you would use in real life. I understand that these questions are often about seeing how you think and how you solve problems. Throwing annoyances like writing code on a whiteboard into a h…

The problem is that at least 60% of people that call themselves programmers, and seemingly have no issue getting by HR, can't code fizzbuzz, let alone whatever it is you're working on.

Issue one for me as an interviewer, whenever I've needed to be in such a position, was just to figure out whether or not I was talking with a programmer.

After that though I tend to agree with you. Beyond demonstrating basic competence - which I think in the future I will look to put into some for of pre-interview screening - code writing tests don't do much.

Personally, I've found bringing my current work in with me and talking about different ways of solving the issue seems to work pretty well.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(The following is made up and CERTAINLY isn't for the job I currently have open for a senior PHP dev in Melbourne.AU) Here's why you don't see question one answered honestly: A. Our sales guys sold our product based on feature "Foo" a year ago. We haven't started coding but they need a demo next week. You have to grok our codebase and write it on your first day. B. The 'Bar' feature was written by a guy who should ha…

Tip: When hiring engineers (or speaking to any anyone ever again) NEVER use the word 'grok.'

Why? It has a more clear meaning than just 'understand', and a 'huh' response should be a pretty good filter for an unsuitable candidate.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#55
post #44

Can someone explain what a "resume wall" is.

A job board has a 'resume wall'. It's like there's a very narrow slot in it you shove your resume through. Then you just hope. And hope. And hope. And then give up because that wall ain't talking.

Anyone ever applying to me that sends me a legitimate application WILL get a response. And if you made it to a phone interview you WILL get a phone response even if we're not continuing.

It's all about respect. (Plus, I might want to hire you next year for a different role. I'd like it if you thought highly of me. And it's not difficult to be polite)

(If you or someone you know is looking for a Senior PHP role in Melbourne.AU, hit me up and I'll point you at the ad on Seek's resume wall :-P)

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(The following is made up and CERTAINLY isn't for the job I currently have open for a senior PHP dev in Melbourne.AU) Here's why you don't see question one answered honestly: A. Our sales guys sold our product based on feature "Foo" a year ago. We haven't started coding but they need a demo next week. You have to grok our codebase and write it on your first day. B. The 'Bar' feature was written by a guy who should ha…

Tip: When hiring engineers (or speaking to any anyone ever again) NEVER use the word 'grok.'

OP referred to a Heinlein quote in his article. I figured that makes using 'grok' in a comment OK.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#57
When I'm involved in interviewing someone, one of the interviews will be cookie-cutter. I've seen with my own eyes applicants who had stellar resumes, had great conversations with everyone they talked to... and could not pass a Cookie-Cutter Technical Interview.

You may think that it's insulting to have to pass a Cookie-Cutter Technical Interview, but we are not (generally) a Professional group - we don't have a Bar that you have to pass to be considered a professional programmer.

When I give something that looked like a Cookie-Cutter Technical Interview, what I'm really assessing is, "How much of my time will I have to spend explaining to this person how to solve programming challenges they'll actually see in the code they'll be working on, and how hard will it be to have that conversation with them."

The absolute best candidates were the ones who understood why I gave them the Cookie-Cutter Technical Interview, and related to me their own frustrations with similar oddities in programming... I concluded that they knew how to dig in to programming problems, and solve them on their own.

The next best candidates, who I loved to recommend to hire, were the ones who didn't know the answer to my questions (which were purposefully challenging), but who had a great dialog with me. I would encourage them to ask questions, to think out loud, etc. I know this is very, very hard to do in an interview, and I tried as hard as I could to be encouraging, and patient, and give hints when they were needed. And if they responded by asking good questions, stating their assumptions, verbalizing what it was that was difficult for them... I concluded that they would be good at identifying when they were over their head, which I hoped meant they would know when to ask for help, and I could also assess whether they'd be able to explain their problem succinctly.

Let me circle back with an anecdote: we had a candidate who looked great on paper, spoke well in all of his other interviews, had lead impressive teams at competitors, and who couldn't solve FizzBuzz. Hiring someone like this is incredibly expensive. Spending one hour of time with a candidate to make sure they can... program... is well worth the time.

And I'm sorry, but it's a Buyer's Market. People trying to Sell themselves as good candidates are going to have to put up with one hour of demeaning technical questions. Hopefully they'll turn that hour into a fun discussion about how programming is challenging, and relating their own stories of the oddities of the languages and libraries they use, and why they have certain preferences, etc. - a whole meta level above why ++i is different from i++, and how it's burned them in the past when someone didn't know the difference, etc.

You say "Let Me Code, Dammit," but most of your job will be READING code that other people write. I know what the code looks like here, and you don't. If I show you the warts, I can tell how you'll react to them. Do you call ugly code "ugly"?

http://www.osnews.com/story/19266/WTFs_m

Do you know why this line of C++ code compiles with Visual Studio 6, but produces the wrong result?

Do you cringe when you see a %s with an int in the param list? Do you tell me that printf functions are inherently unsafe? How do you recommend making them safer?

If you code C++, do you know Boost?

Can you spot a new without a delete? Will you tell me to use shared_ptr or auto-ptr, or just use the stack?

Typing code is generally having good habits, using safe but powerful libraries and language constructs the right way. But maintaining code is a bit of an art. If you don't agree about what's "ugly" and why, you're probably going to push the body of code in a direction that I call unmaintainable.

And there are different strategies in how to make code more maintainable over time, but within one company, we should probably all be pushing roughly in the same direction.

"Let Me Code, Damnit" doesn't help me assess that as well as something that looks - at first blush - like a Cooke-Cutter Technical Interview does.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#58
post #27

Excellent! Very well written and expressed. There was an interviewee here today and I heard my boss tell someone to quiz him on big-o notation. I rolled my eyes. Yesterday I had an interview that started off with "Tell me a bit about yourself." No direction as to what the interviewer wanted and, the worst part, as soon as I said I was done, he went right into asking me what the difference between "overloading" and "o…

> Yesterday I had an interview that started off with "Tell me a bit about yourself."

To be fair, alot of well meaning interviewers start off that way. It's supposed to be a chance for you to mention all the good things that we may not ask about.

In fact that question is so common its a good weeder question; if a person can't blow your socks off with 5 minutes then you can probably predict how the rest of the interview will go.

I mean the interviewer basically says to you a golden opportunity to say why they should hire you. If you don't know what to say that pretty much says it all:)

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#59
Man I hate getting recruiter emails... I get this vague description of the job for a "hot startup" or "well funded startup" or "established startup"... and I have no idea what they actually make, what the company is about, etc.

   STARTUPS: STOP USING RECRUITERS!
in fact... everyone stop using recruiters. Look on monster.com and dice.com and stack overflow careers and whatever else. I guarantee you, recruiters aren't going to magically find people that don't have their resumes listed there. Anyone who wants a job has their resume listed up there. Find some people that look good, and email them. It's not a full time job, and the quality of candidates you get will more than make up for the lost time in actually reading through resumes.

I pay 100x the attention to an email from a real person at a real company who can actually talk about what they do, how they do it, and what I would be expected to do, than I do an email from a recruiter who just wants to place me at whatever company they can get me into. Recruiters don't care about you and they don't care about me. They want a quickie - wham bam, thank you ma'am.

Maybe it's just Boston, I don't know, but you look on all the big sites, and it's 95% recruiters.

Do you think job applicants are dumb? That they won't do some basic searches to find the job your HR guy posted on dice.com?

Which of these do you think I'm more likely to click on?

  Job #213 from TechRecruiterz.com
  Full stack engineer for SomeAwesomeStartup.com
One is a position at an actual company, one is an advertisement for a Recruiter who doesn't give any identifying information about the job, and doesn't actually care if I'm a match for a job so long as I take A job... any job, so he can get paid.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#60

I've got to agree with you. I recently started getting serious about changing positions and I've become completely convinced that much of the so-called 'talent shortage' is caused by the job search process, from job listings through to interviews. Every step is unintentionally outrageous in a new way. The first step, finding open positions that are appropriate to your skills and abilities, is overwhelming and impossi…

I recently started getting serious about changing positions and I've become completely convinced that much of the so-called 'talent shortage' is caused by the job search process, from job listings through to interviews. Every step is unintentionally outrageous in a new way.

Yep. Bilateral mismatch. Here's the dirty truth: people don't actually care about talent or even how good you are at your job. They just want to get a mission fulfilled. That'd be fine, with competent execution-- hire the right kind of person, get it done and done well, make your money and move on to something better. The problem is that it seems that 90 percent of them have no clue what they want or how to evaluate the relevant talents, and there's a hardcore Design Paradox effect going on as well.

By the way, I'm pretty well-known at this point. I'm probably in the 96-97th percentile for programming skill and 99th for loudness. It makes job searching easier to be "a quantity" and I'm finally getting to a point where it opens up some great options... but I've still dealt with a lot of frustration. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Those you do hear back from will often mis-represent themselves and their businesses in an attempt to get hires. In fact, I was a victim of this at my current job.

This is a problem in stodgy bureaucracies and VC-istan. In the former, it's because in Douchebagland, one's value is based on how many reports he has-- not what those reports actually do-- so bringing in marginal people through dishonest means improves the boss's resume. In the latter, it has more to do with the way companies are valued by investors and acquirers-- some $X million per employee.

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