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Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

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Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#81

Post by vor_ »

czr80 wrote: post #53
pekk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

white men are never sent death threats, are you sure?

What white men never get, and this is just an observation, I have no sides or deep interest in this mess, is a comment like: "this makes me re-think hiring white men, they're not worth the drama". I've seen a few of those around the place regarding Ms Richards.

I don't know if anyone has actually said they won't be hiring women because of Adria Richards. What people have definitely said is that Richards may have hurt gender relations by causing male techies to be nervous around female co-workers. This was actually the most common reaction from women to this story, among those that I read.

In fact, I think it's a very underappreciated aspect of this tale that so many women sided against her. A lot of them make the same kinds of dick jokes--including, as we now know, Adria Richards.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#82

Post by esbwhat »

smokeyj wrote: post #76
esbwhat wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't think Adria overreacted. It was a microaggression. Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. Were the jokes explicitly sexist? No, but in an industry that has more than just a bad track record, stuff like that is not okay. Context matters.

> Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment Maybe they make Adria uncomfortable. Maybe they make you uncomfortable. They don't make all women uncomfortable, and you should stop pretending you speak on behalf of women everywhere. Arguing that some humor should be saved for when women aren't around seems like the antithesis of equality. If anything it explains why a "boy club" would ever exist. To…

Bullshit. It's not about whether ALL women are uncomfortable. Of course not all women are uncomfortable. So should we only frown upon behaviours that make every single member of a minority uncomfortable? Some is enough.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#83

Post by esbwhat »

MartinCron wrote: post #50
esbwhat wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't think Adria overreacted. It was a microaggression. Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. Were the jokes explicitly sexist? No, but in an industry that has more than just a bad track record, stuff like that is not okay. Context matters.

I totally agree that it was a microaggression, and that microaggression is a real thing that isn't to be tolerated. I know that it's all part of a pervasively unwelcoming and alienating culture that I, as a straight white male, am also disturbed by. I get all of that. I understand all of that and still think her reaction was out-of-scale.

Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. I don't see the problem?

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#84

Post by vor_ »

mladenkovacevic wrote: post #65
czr80 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What white men never get, and this is just an observation, I have no sides or deep interest in this mess, is a comment like: "this makes me re-think hiring white men, they're not worth the drama". I've seen a few of those around the place regarding Ms Richards.

Also if a man did this, it wouldn't even register on the internet's "burn-the-hypocrite" scale and I would actually be able to read something else on HN.

I don't really think this is a worthwhile route to go down. Someone could very well argue that if a man took a woman's picture because he overheard her making a vagina joke, it wouldn't have gotten any serious attention at all. Adria's complaint was taken seriously, at least by the conference organizers and the employer of the man who was fired, because she was a woman, and women are most often the recipient of sexism, especially in tech. Therefore, it's vital to take a stand against those who exploit that attention through their own cynical motives.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#85

Post by guizzy »

papsosouid wrote: post #10

"Anonymous" did not over-react. For their reaction to be an over-reaction, it would have to have a goal other than "lol those idiots took us seriously again". Do people honestly not realize than absurd copypasta like http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/navy-seal-copypasta are not actually death threats? And that treating them seriously is exactly what the people posting them want?

Sure, but on the other hand, they're giving Adria exactly what she needed to get out of this one stronger: a way to claim to be the victim of the Internet Hate Machine.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#86

Post by kscaldef »

aliston wrote: post #21
KVFinn wrote: post #2

>Look, whatever “side” of this you’re one, here’s what happened: >Some guys made some guy jokes about guy stuff >A woman got offended and did something that was probably an over-reaction >Some conference organizers over-reacted >A company (PlayHaven) over-reacted >The internet (all of us, but especially Anonymous) over-reacted >Another company (SendGrid) over-reacted >I’ve been cursed and pilloried and told to go kil…

I don't blame Adria for going into hiding, but 2 weeks from now I doubt anyone will even remember this snafu.

If you don't mind, are you a man or a woman? White or colored?

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#87

Post by IvyMike »

esbwhat wrote: post #34
maudineormsby wrote: post #12

Sorry, but I don't think the conference organizers overreacted. They did exactly what they were supposed to do under the CoC - they received a complaint, and addressed it discreetly. If they hadn't taken it seriously, and just said 'cool it', then they'd be guilty of not taking their own CoC seriously. And they didn't kick the guy out, or anything like that - it was basically a verbal warning, but done formally so th…

I also don't think Adria overreacted. It was a microaggression. Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. Were the jokes explicitly sexist? No, but in an industry that has more than just a bad track record, stuff like that is not okay. Context matters.

The term microagression is weird.

If it was "micro", a proportional response would have also have been micro. Public shaming seems out of proportion.

And "aggression" implies directed hostility or malicious intent, neither of which seems to be the case here.

> Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech.

I have to simply disagree here. There are other things that may foster such an environment, but focusing on dumb, non-hostile jokes like this are a distraction.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#88

Post by MartinCron »

esbwhat wrote: post #83
MartinCron wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree that it was a microaggression, and that microaggression is a real thing that isn't to be tolerated. I know that it's all part of a pervasively unwelcoming and alienating culture that I, as a straight white male, am also disturbed by. I get all of that. I understand all of that and still think her reaction was out-of-scale.

Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. I don't see the problem?

The problem was the extremely public nature of the channel. It wasn't speaking softly to the usher that someone was being inappropriate and unprofessional, it was shouting into a megaphone that someone was being inappropriate and unprofessional.

It's the "megaphone" part that I think is out-of-scale. If we're going to be a civilized community, then gentle, discreet correction should be the societal norm.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#89

Post by lucisferre »

bpatrianakos wrote: post #78
metajack wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Scalzi rebuts this pretty well I think: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2011/08/31/the-sort-of-crap-i-don...

What's so great about his rebuttal? I read that whole thing and it's all anecdotal and seemingly exaggerated. Plus it's based on a single person. It rebuts something but it's definitely not the OP's point.

> I challenge the reader to find any notable figure online who has held a controversial position and not been the target of death threats.

Re: Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’

#90

Post by IvyMike »

criley wrote: post #18

I hate the idea that she's getting death threats and insults because of her gender. That's wrong. It's not because of her gender. It's because she's a notable figure on the internet. I challenge the reader to find any notable figure online who has held a controversial position and not been the target of death threats. That is an Internet anonymity problem, not a gender problem! Women are not the only targets of anony…

> I hate the idea that she's getting death threats and insults because of her gender. That's wrong.

Maybe I'm a fool to try to figure out the motivation of anonymous jackasses on the internet, but: It sure feels like the passion and energy being put into some of the attacks is due to her gender.

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