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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#941

Post by seivan »

mtrimpe wrote: post #931
JPKab wrote: post #912

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't offensive. I see a lot of cases of ACTUAL, OFFENSIVE sexism on HN. This isn't it. This is an attention addict using whatever means at her disposal to get attention, without a thought as to the cost to those she uses as pawns. We all have encountered both males and females that are real victims, and we have also all encountered people who pretend to be offended for attention. I use to work in the deep south,…

Now if that's not an ad-hominem I don't know what is. Adria got pissed at overhearing some inappropriate jokes, snapped a picture and tweeted her indignation. It might not have been the wisest thing to do, but she didn't fire that guy; she just got offended. It's her right to get offended here and it's the other guy's right to (accidentally) offend her. The only dicks here are a) Playhaven unless, like I suspect, the…

IT IS NOT HER RIGHT TO GET OFFENDED.

Now you're probably wondering why I used all caps. I really don't have a good explanation for that. Because once I read your post, that's the first thing that sprung to my mind.. in Helvetica-Neu, bold 38px.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#942

Post by gadders »

wpietri wrote: post #191
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

This sounds more like wishful thinking on your part, mate, to be honest.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#943

Post by mtrimpe »

seivan wrote: post #941
mtrimpe wrote: post #931

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now if that's not an ad-hominem I don't know what is. Adria got pissed at overhearing some inappropriate jokes, snapped a picture and tweeted her indignation. It might not have been the wisest thing to do, but she didn't fire that guy; she just got offended. It's her right to get offended here and it's the other guy's right to (accidentally) offend her. The only dicks here are a) Playhaven unless, like I suspect, the…

IT IS NOT HER RIGHT TO GET OFFENDED. Now you're probably wondering why I used all caps. I really don't have a good explanation for that. Because once I read your post, that's the first thing that sprung to my mind.. in Helvetica-Neu, bold 38px.

Thank you for so beautifully making my true point: that these issues bring a lot of deep-seated emotions to the surface that we often don't even consciously understand or are aware of and that that is the real topic we should be discussing.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#944

Post by doktrin »

bird_in_hand wrote: post #921
doktrin wrote: post #895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not arguing that they WERE making sex jokes, or that it rose to the level of a firing offense, just that "she could have asked us to stop" is not a good argument. What was the appropriate response, then? I honestly think assertive and honest feedback is often the most effective way to curb unwanted behavior. > But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the…

Tweeting a picture isn't a DEFCON 4 response. I don't really think that it's that problematic- they were breaking the rules of the conference that they had agreed to, and calling someone out publicly is a very common method of enforcing social norms. It's not necessarily the most nuanced or feel-good method, but it's not like they had an expectation of privacy while in a crowded convention room. The overreaction here…

>Tweeting a picture isn't a DEFCON 4 response.

Agree to disagree. Short of legal action or physical violence, extra-public shaming (Twitter) is about as escalated a response as I can think of.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#945

Post by belorn »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #904
belorn wrote: post #842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fire the individual has as about as much sense, as kicking someone out of an airport because they happen to have a bottle with more than 3.4 ounce of liquid. Sure, there might be a rule or code, but there is also a thing called overreaction.

I bet he won't make the same mistake again. Perhaps we're all so used to going through the 6 month HR-slap-on-the-wrist process that we have lost touch of what it actually takes to change a person's behavior.

What mistake is it that this person should have changed?

Not to use any from of possible objectionable joke/language when talking privately with a friend but in a public setting? I guess he should never again say anything that has to do with politics, religion, sex, violence, or technical standards.

Or is it to avoid any places with people he doesn't know. Avoid all conferences, bars, cities, towns, buss stations and so on? Only ever be at places where he know he can speak freely without anyone taking "offense" if what he said is overheard.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#946

Post by klez »

ajross wrote: post #127
crag wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BS. I'm getting sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions. Now I do agree with you somewhat. I doubt she saw this "joke" as an opportunity to screw someone over (at least I hope so. If she did, then all bets are off); but that doesn't excuse her wrong. Her actions caused this guy to be fired. She needs to own it. Apoligize, Offer amends and move on.

Isn't the guy getting fired a symmetrical example of failing to take responsibility for one's actions? Presumably (and I'll say again: there remains NO actual evidence about this termination) he was fired for making an offensive joke in public. And he works for an employer that finds that to be a termination-level offense. Now, presuming he knew that: shouldn't he, too, be "taking responsibility" for his actions inst…

Actually there's a comment from the guy somewhere in another thread where he apologizes for his behaviour. I didn't see anything like that coming from Adria.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#947

Post by klez »

apetresc wrote: post #357
lopatin wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would generally agree with your point. I wouldn't want my company judging me based on photos they find of me on messing around with friends on Facebook. That would be pretty low. However, these are two different situations. It's different when she is a public face of SendGrid and her Twitter profile states "Developer Evangelist for @SendGrid". I'm not saying that this post merits her being fired for anything. I'm j…

A YouTube "partner" is an actual term in YouTube that basically means you have a special broadcaster account that shares ad revenue with you. Basically, she makes popular YouTube videos.

I think the question is about "creator". I'd take it as 'I created youtube' but maybe it's just me not being a native english speaker.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#948

Post by bluehat »

jessedhillon wrote: post #790
bluehat wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah, woah, woah, woah. No. I can't understand why they were fired. I think it is a gross overreaction to what is, at worst, a socially correctable situation. And no, I'm not some non-elective male virgin. I'm a lady, and I find your characterization of people who don't agree with you as somehow socially inept is childish, dismissive, and illogical.

Thanks for your response. I think it's pretty obvious that my comment doesn't, and isn't intended to, apply to 100.000% of the commenting group. I find your characterization of people who don't agree with you as somehow socially inept is childish, dismissive, and illogical. Of course you do. This is fucking mob rule -- here's a group which disagrees violently with itself on the minutiae of silicon doping processes an…

Your false dichotomy is unappealing.

A third option (for starters) is that there are so many overreactions and mistakes in this story that there are many parties to be outraged with. The outrage isn't uniformly distributed across parties to blame but everybody feels it. This is how these threads get so long. If the community was not divided, these threads would be short simple affairs.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#949

Post by jessedhillon »

bluehat wrote: post #948
jessedhillon wrote: post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your response. I think it's pretty obvious that my comment doesn't, and isn't intended to, apply to 100.000% of the commenting group. I find your characterization of people who don't agree with you as somehow socially inept is childish, dismissive, and illogical. Of course you do. This is fucking mob rule -- here's a group which disagrees violently with itself on the minutiae of silicon doping processes an…

Your false dichotomy is unappealing. A third option (for starters) is that there are so many overreactions and mistakes in this story that there are many parties to be outraged with. The outrage isn't uniformly distributed across parties to blame but everybody feels it. This is how these threads get so long. If the community was not divided, these threads would be short simple affairs.

I don't know if we're reading the same threads then. I see a nearly unambiguous, unidirectional wave of resentment, and the downmodding of anyone expressing anything remotely dissenting. A normal HN dialogue has people showing restraint when downmodding, even on topics where there is heated disagreement and passionate opinion, say something like "Does PHP suck?"

This is a deluge of unanimity, by comparison.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#950

Post by jessedhillon »

katbyte wrote: post #814
jessedhillon wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAICT this is all we got, from a primary source, about the joke: "began making sexual forking jokes" That doesn't tell me what the joke was, it could have been anything. The rest of your comment is hyperbole and straw man. Secret police? Gimme a break, they're walking ads for their company and they agreed to a code of conduct before attending. It's pretty unreasonable to say that you need a second chance to act like…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 > While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes were made about forking. My friends and I had decided forking someone's repo is a new form of flattery (the highest form being implementation) and we were excited about one of the presenters projects; a friend said "I would fork that guys repo" The sexual context…

a) Fine, we have a second opinion on what was said. That was not even my point -- it was that it doesn't matter what the specific joke was, whether about dongles or forking (who cares?) the point is that it was lewd and public.

b) if that's not bullying then i don't know what is. Well first, she didn't fire them, their employers did. Presumably after an investigation or at least an interview with the offending employee -- where he would have had a chance to say, "no I didn't make a crude joke in public, while among mixed company and acting as a representative of our organization." If, in fact, that was the truth. But no, the truth is that his behavior is exactly described thus.

Second, is this hyperbole? You don't know what bullying is if it's not someone tweeting out a picture and describing offending behavior which actually took place? There are many examples of actual bullying, and the consequences are much more severe than a meeting with an HR rep.

c) If he deserved to be fired, she does even more so. Totally irrelevant, even if it's true. Go complain to SendGrid and PyCon about how Adria Richards' behavior offended you. People don't always get what they deserve -- that doesn't mean that the people who do get what they deserve are being betrayed.

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