They forgot to add that all childish jokes should not be shared amongst each other, ever.
Childishness, silliness, and lewdness is a core part of what Monty Python was about. Monty Python's style of humor was encouraged in the Python programmer culture from the beginning. It's ironic that Pycon's policy would prevent me from publicly reciting some of my favorite Flying Circus skit lines.
PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
151–160 of 387 posts
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I've seen that argument tossed about. There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. The former is reading content from someone you chose to follow, the latter is the equivalent of having people talk behind you in a mov…
A tweet can be retweeted, it's absolutely meant to be public, while the former was meant to be private. In other words, you are saying one should be more careful about offending others in private conversations then on Twitter?
More importantly, the issue of privacy is irrelevant to what I was saying. In one situation, you're attending an event and someone is ruining that experience for you. In the other situation, you're reading someone's content by choice.
Lastly, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not actually claiming that Adria is or isn't a hypocrite; I've read her blog post and her comments and I have my own opinions on her. I'm claiming that the above argument is not valid when trying to call her a hypocrite.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#153Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#154This is tricky. "Dear Attendees, If you feel you're being harassed, please don't tell anyone but us. Thanks." As a general rule I think we should be working to empower people to handle situations on their own (part of that handling will likely include notifying organizers). Not disenfranchising them so they've got no recourse but to report something to a group of people selected for their ability to run a conference,…
I totally agree. There is nothing here prohibiting you from telling immature people to cut it out.
> Not disenfranchising them so they've got no recourse but to report something to a group of people selected for their ability to run a conference, not necessarily mediate disputes.
The only thing this "disenfranchises" you from is trying to start lynch mobs whenever you feel like it. That is rarely an appropriate method of mediating disputes or resolving a problem, and I am totally happy that they are discouraging it.
> Do I happen to think that "public shaming" was appropriate here? Probably not. Do I think it's been effectively used by many groups in the past to effect change, yes.
Public shaming is a drastic measure. It should only be used if you have exhausted other more reasonable methods of resolving your problems. You should only reach for that hammer when you face systemic issues.
I have seen no evidence that the PyCon staff turns a blind eye to sexism or inappropriate comments. That's the kind of thing that deserves public shaming; when the system itself is broken.
> The fact that PyCon and many other conferences have adopted a code of conduct is evidence of this.
Yes, but once you have a system that is working, you threaten its efficacy by continuing to try to effect change in spite of it.
> When a group asks me to constrain how I behave outside the confines of their event (on twitter for example) I tend to apply it universally.
They are not telling you how to behave outside the confines of their event. They are telling you that the appropriate venue to bring your disputes at PyCon is to the PyCon staff, not your legion of twitter followers.
If the PyCon staff doesn't handle things appropriately, then go ahead and start handing out torches and pitchforks.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.
Totally agree. The employer owns absolutely all responsibility for terminating the employee. However, I do not believe it would have been out of line for Adria to have said something like "I heard one of the guys in the photo I posted on Twitter yesterday was fired. I just wanted to say that I'm terribly sorry to hear that and my intent was never to cause harm! I'm very sorry!" I believe contrition on her part would…
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
| what they said wasn't appropriate in the | opinion of their employer There's more nuance than that. By tweeting it, she turned it into a public issue. The scale of the issue changed. The guy's employer probably fired him to avoid association with negative publicity, and to try to avoid being seen as supporting what he said. The fact that the guy was publicly shamed led to that. Had identities been anonymized while…
How is a conversation in earshot of tens of strangers at a public event a private conversation?
Just because someone in that crowd can be offended by something we say doesn't mean jack shit, unless it is directed directly at them I don't see how it applies to them.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#157Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then that someone doesn't get to publicly shame me for what is offensive to them, and doesn't have the right to ask me to stop. My joke. Not meant for you. Stop listening.
Except that you can't stop listening because you're in a public situation! I've sat through some train rides myself where I had to listen to people having 'private conversations' riddled with jokes about gay people. I can tell you that will make your blood boil. I just got up and moved away, but doing that at PyCon during a talk is quite a bit harder.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#159> Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect I think the "out of respect" is unnecessary and somewhat nonsensical. Out of respect for whom? I think it's fine to just say that PyCon, like any reasonable organization, doesn't participate or condone in such public shaming, period...because the reasons to not engage…
It's on Github... Fork it and make a pull request?
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter This isn't a case of "it would have been better", it was a case of "what she did was clearly wrong". She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse. > But the extreme outburst of misogyny - the insults, abuse, and physical threats including threats of rape - is perhaps the bi…
"She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse." The problem is that people are attributing to her certain actions that she was not involved in. She didn't fire the guy; the employer did, based on his interpretation of the actions. If calling attention to potential misogyny results in a witch-hunt or in victim-blaming, the underlying problems won't be addressed. lizzard ( https://news.y…