PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming • Hacker News Board

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#121

Post by saurik » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:43 PM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #89

danso wrote: post #6

> Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect I think the "out of respect" is unnecessary and somewhat nonsensical. Out of respect for whom? I think it's fine to just say that PyCon, like any reasonable organization, doesn't participate or condone in such public shaming, period...because the reasons to not engage…

True. It's mambo jambo just to make a point that they've dealt with the issue. You know what would be better for the conference? A no pictures policy like defcon. That way,people would not be able to violate others privacy for their own agendas.

(Your point stands, but it is at least interesting that DEFCON apparently removed that policy, AFAICT.)

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#122

Post by X-Istence » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:43 PM UTC

MattBearman wrote: post #65

JulianMorrison wrote: post #11

I disagree. Public shaming is the right way to make harassers actually fear the consequences (to their career, for example).

That may or may not be true, but it's not really relevant to this. Adria wasn't harassed, she over heard something, and took offence to it. That's her problem. When ever someone claims to be offended, I'm always reminded of Stephen Fry's excellent response - http://imgur.com/EX5v4

Steve Hughes said something along the same lines: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b48_1305790944

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#123

Post by chernevik » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:44 PM UTC

They can amend the rules all they like but they'll never arrive at a set that properly covers all the various behaviors that people rightly find objectionable.

In the process of trying they'll very likely end up with a set of contradictory and/or impossibly ambiguous rules. They'll also encourage people to think that by compliance with the rules they've done all they need to. They'll encourage still others to abuse the rules in ways detrimental to other people. And they'll discourage a lot of harmless and possibly useful / interesting / fun discussion out of fear that it will be interpreted as a violation.

Gender bias and stereotyping are problems of culture. The various violations are all questions of judgment. Those judgments will always depend on questions of context. That doesn't mean the problems are unimportant or that there can't be consensus judgments of a full set of facts. But it does mean you cannot solve questions of integrity and intent and interpretation with external rules.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#124

Post by giardini » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:45 PM UTC

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

".. I do NOT believe that ANY conference attendees should have to sit idly by and listen to penis jokes."

Nobody need do so. Simply move to another seat.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#125

Post by X-Istence » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:45 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #74

theorique wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which gets to the definition of harassment, right? Were these guys in a private, joking conversation harassing or simply overheard by accident? Think fast ... your job could depend on it.

They were in the middle of an auditorium, which is the opposite of private. Regardless of whether it constitutes harassment, the conference has a specific policy against it. Everyone involved said he was wrong and she was right, including they guy, who apologized in person and later in public on HN. She didn't ask for him to be fired.

If the guy, who apologized in person on HN, had said he wasn't wrong and that it was a joke between two friends he would have been lynched even harder than he was now.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#126

Post by michellegreer1 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:48 PM UTC

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

Call me crazy, but something tells me this guy wasn't just fired for this incident. Good Python help can be hard to come by and firing someone over a private dongle joke has been seen by everyone, including Adria, as a total overreaction.

That being said, telling a woman that she should be raped or killed over such a circumstance (which did happen on Twitter) is also an overreaction. This sort of thing happens quite a bit to any woman who seems to challenge the status quo culture of tech. Both women AND men I know are saddened that this happens.

People shouldn't feel that the speech police will reign down on private jokes not directed towards specific people. And no woman should ever be threatened with rape or death, especially when she is not reponsible for the overreaction that ensued.

While you are right in thinking that perhaps an apology would stop all this, you have to consider the price that Adria paid because she was sick of hearing evidence of "bro culture" in programming. Have you ever had someone tell you that you should be raped? Do people wish you dead? I doubt Adria would disagree with your assessment, as she could never have anticipated that the man would have been fired. At this point though, she is probably hoping she can still do her job without getting hurt by some. Your hindsight observation doesn't really help here.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#127

Post by gtz57 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:48 PM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #96

drharris wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to believe that offense is subjective to the individual. Should we then be responsible for everything we do that offends others? What level of recourse should they have for being offended? If we think that punitive action is appropriate given an offense, how do we determine what a legitimate offense is, versus a non-legitimate offense?

> Should we then be responsible for everything we do that offends others? Yes. > What level of recourse should they have for being offended? If we think that punitive action is appropriate given an offense, how do we determine what a legitimate offense is, versus a non-legitimate offense? If people finding out publicly that you did it would cause you to lose your job, that might be a good indicator.

but people can take offense to anything, so that means you would be responsible for all of the stupid things people get offended about.

People don't have the right to not be offended. I think you are half right, but offense probably has to be both given and taken, not just taken.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#128

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:49 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #85

imsofuture wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

We live in a politically correct world, and employers will do the wrong thing in order to save face because it's more expedient. It's hard to both try to help run a business and simultaneously wage war over social discourse. The pattern is that firms will react, and overreact, to what they perceive as a scandal involving hot-button issues. The firing was a mistake but maybe the people involved were afraid of what mig…

Then those employers should be punished via the same public shaming mechanism. If this is the new way to do things, fine, but it works both ways.

Never heard of PlayHeaven before. Now it is on my black list. I will make sure to remember it. Unless I read a public apology with an offer to hire him back, I will make sure to go out of my way to let everyone know about them.

PyCon -- making off color jokes is reason to take statements and escort people out in front of everyone, but posting insulting face pictures on attendees (sponsors none the less) is ok? Nope. It is not 'OK'. There should be a public apology. Guess which one makes PyCon a hostile environment? Imagine someone saying "I refuse to attend PyCon if the person who posted a picture of naked woman in one of the slides comes too". Everyone understands that, sympathy flows on twitter etc. Now what if I say I refuse to attend if Adria attends. I don't feel safe and don't feel welcome when my face could easily end up twitter with an insult underneath. Isn't that the same issue?

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#129

Post by pfortuny » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:49 PM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #113

pfortuny wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have I said anything wrong?

When supporting women's right on Hacker News you tend to get a disproportionate number of downvotes compared to 'normal' topics. That means that if your comment usually would just not get any upvotes (which yours wouldn't since it wasn't terribly well written) you'll suddenly get into negative point territory on these issues. If you look you'll be able to find other comments as well which easily pass the 'constructiv…

Thanks for the pointer and for the details. Yes, when in a rush my English gets really awful.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#130

Post by CodeMage » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:50 PM UTC

niggler wrote: post #103

CodeMage wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that people are attributing to her certain actions that she was not involved in. She didn't fire the guy; the employer did, based on his interpretation of the actions. I am continually perplexed to see this argument. Two guys made inappropriate jokes in a public place and the same people who agree that "we didn't mean any harm" is not a valid defense for them offer a "she didn't mean any harm" as a def…

the same people who agree that "we didn't mean any harm" is not a valid defense for them offer a "she didn't mean any harm" as a defense for Adria's decision to publicly broadcast her complaint. You misinterpret the reaction. I'm not suggesting that the guys meant any harm. It's in their right to make the joke, and it's in her right to respond, and anyone telling you that the guys meant harm but she didn't is applyin…

You misinterpret the reaction. I'm not suggesting that the guys meant any harm. It's in their right to make the joke, and it's in her right to respond, and anyone telling you that the guys meant harm but she didn't is applying a double standard.

I guess I didn't express clearly what I meant. When someone makes an inappropriate joke in a professional setting, a lot of people agree that "I didn't mean to offend you" is not a valid defense and point out that they just shouldn't have made that joke in the first place.

Yet a lot of those same people claim that Adria bears no responsibility whatsoever for one of the guys getting fired. That's the double standard I'm referring to.