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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#781
post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? As a member of an organisation, you represent it, willingly or not. It's no different in the "real world", as this case highlights. What do you find so repulsive about it?

The simplest way I can explain this to you is that for various reasons some people enjoy conforming, others don't. And, this case highlights different things about the "real world" to different people.

If you don't want to conform, don't wear a uniform identifying you with the group you don't want to conform with.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The overcompensation and hypersensitivity to combat sexism in technology is, rather amusingly, making technology even more hostile and demoralizing. I find this attitude really strange, as if you need to make dick jokes to write code. Sorry to lose you, but if basic manners are an insufferable encroachment on your style and abilities, maybe we'll just have to find a way to get along without your talent.

I'm not sure how you got from the quoted portion to your conclusion. I don't need to make dick jokes to write code. I'm not lamenting the loss of base humor. I'm lamenting the guerrilla campaign against it, such as considering it okay to take photos of someone and shame them publicly without even saying a word to them as if we live in 1984 . Notice I didn't type anything like "boy, I'll sure miss dick jokes," so I su…

Let's set aside the current situation. Surely you're not leaving your career because last week somebody indirectly caused some poor schmuck to get fired for being a goober at a conference you didn't even attend. Your complaints only make sense if you perceive the situational sum total of the sexism or plain offensiveness as being more similar to this event, rather than seeing this event as an anomaly.

But this situation is really quite anomalous. Even setting aside Adria's histrionics, we still have a situation where the online response was overwhelmingly out of proportion and either nobody did much in person or it was completely resolved in person, depending on which comments above were true. This stands in sharp contrast to the other five or six of these fiascos from the last year, where in nearly every case the offended parties tried to be polite and were shrugged off, told to get a sense of humor or not take things so seriously or told they should have been approached in private rather than publicly. In other words, this is the first fiasco we've had in recent memory where the response actually was out of proportion—prior, NYC got napalmed because the bed bugs were still there after trying everything else.

I find it disingenuous to rewrite history from this single event to paint the sexism problem in our industry as being an overreaction by people who didn't speak up in person when this is really the only example of that. You must have real reasons for leaving the industry that don't have anything to do with this. I just find it hard to believe that someone could love programming and yet be so unwilling to avoid being offensive—or so afraid of being persecuted for it—that they leave the career for just this one reason.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! Thanks for the civilized reply. I understand you don't get it. I'm saying that's partly because you don't have a visceral fear of sexual assault. You also probably don't have much experience with unwanted sexual advances. And you've probably never been sexually harassed. You also may not have experienced being a visibly different minority in a situation where that raises your risk of unpleasantness or violence. I…

Your invocation of some obscure situation where you would feel legitimately threatened in a sexual way has nothing to do with the reality of what happened. It's true that women can be put into sexually threatening situations. It's patently false that what happened at Pycon is an example of one.

I never said that they were.

I'm trying to help Joeboy understand why sexual content can trigger legitimate fears.

Note that at this very conference, there was other inappropriate stuff going on:

http://ivory.idyll.org/blog/pycon-2013-and-codes-of-conduct....

So although I agree that Adira was in no immediate danger, I think she was right to see jokes like that as being part of an environment that alienates women and enables problematic behavior.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#784
Who is Adria anyway? Is she particularly important in the SF tech scene? Why was she given automatic credibility by Pycon and the employer of these men?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should always think about the impact of what you're saying. What is the point of saying something but to have an effect on your listeners?

I don't like this train of logic. How can I read minds? What if I bring up something about my dog, and trigger someone in the room who was the victim of a dog attack? So dick jokes are off the table, I get that. What about "your mom" jokes? Or blonde jokes? What is the invisible line that I dare not cross?

You read minds the traditional way: by asking people. And by paying attention to their reactions when you are talking.

In this case, the line was pretty visible: the conference has a code of conduct.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should always think about the impact of what you're saying. What is the point of saying something but to have an effect on your listeners?

I believe it was you who simply did not think about the impact of your words when you compared the situation to that of 2 gay men discussing "virgin asshole". I think you need a moment of introspection on your own commentary.

I did think about it. I have thought about it since, and will think about it tomorrow. I may have gotten it wrong.

But to be clear, as I have written circa 15 times at this point, I was not comparing the situations. I understand why people might think that, but I didn't say it. I apologize for not being explicit about that, as it has caused a great deal of distraction from my actual point.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#787
post #209
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It went further than that, though. http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...

From this article: "I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop. I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so." Seems a tad melodramatic as a reaction to a private conversation. Seems to go with the Joan-of-Arc complex: https://twitter.com/adriarich…

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If PyCon is one of these "venues that require customers to agree to a code of conduct barring inappropriate jokes", many people will consider whether it's a venue in which they feel safe.

Safe? Why would that make anyone feel unsafe?

Conventions--and especially "hallway conversations" at conventions--tend to be one of the places people traditionally have a social more for being "private even when it's not private" (think Las Vegas.) It is a social more of such places for people to treat any conversation happening around them which is not intended for their ears, as if it wasn't happening. Restaurants are another good example of such a place.

There are many things I can say to people, which they will themselves appreciate hearing, but which I would feel unsafe saying, say, on the record on a public message board. Usually, if one wants to say these things "in confidence", one doesn't find a truly private space (a closed and sealed room)--one just relies on the social-etiquette confidence of a place like a restaurant.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

This is, without a doubt, the worst thing I have ever read on Hacker News. And I've read a lot. You should be ashamed of yourself for writing something so hopelessly intolerant. Until now, I felt somewhat removed from this sexism-in-tech debate because I'm a man. Therefore, my opinions on it are outsiders' opinions, and it doesn't really have an impact on me directly (just indirectly). Now, though, since I'm a gay ma…

If you're in tech and you're not actively mindful about making things better for women, you are part of the problem. Also, gay disenfranchisement is not 1,000 times more important than female disenfranchisement.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A major factor you have to always consider when reading HN comments on stories like this -- and I'm not even kidding here -- is that a large percentage of the HN population has no idea how to convince women to have sex with them. I mean, among online forums, I would place good money that HN's readership has one of the highest ratios of adult virgins (non-elective, i.e. not by choice) Why do I think this? Because I've…

Woah, woah, woah, woah. No. I can't understand why they were fired. I think it is a gross overreaction to what is, at worst, a socially correctable situation. And no, I'm not some non-elective male virgin. I'm a lady, and I find your characterization of people who don't agree with you as somehow socially inept is childish, dismissive, and illogical.

Thanks for your response. I think it's pretty obvious that my comment doesn't, and isn't intended to, apply to 100.000% of the commenting group.

I find your characterization of people who don't agree with you as somehow socially inept is childish, dismissive, and illogical.

Of course you do. This is fucking mob rule -- here's a group which disagrees violently with itself on the minutiae of silicon doping processes and whether or not to put a semicolon after Javascript statements. Yet on a story like this, where the few given facts easily support multiple valid interpretations, a cursory scan of the comments shows near unanimity in the common conclusion. A conclusion which enables the overwhelming majority of HNers to claim victimhood and persecution by outsiders.

So either:

1) a situation which, on the surface, would appear to be nuanced and require calm reasoning to process and fully understand is actually binary and easily decided, or

2) this story hits a pain point common to the psyche of this group of readers, who have common background and experience, work or have worked together, work at similar companies, attend the same events, and in general belong to the milieu.

To me it's rather obvious that #2 is the case, what do you think?

And assuming #2 is the case: given my experience in the past with subsets of this group, and other non-HNers who would nonetheless be described as part of the same culture, I feel that the hypothesis I put forward has the potential to be a theory with significant explanatory power. For some commenters.

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