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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#731

Post by darkarmani »

georgeorwell wrote: post #470
BrianEatWorld wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office I work in is entirely male, myself included, and just because don how I was raised, these types of jokes make me uncomfortable. However, after I said something about the issue, my coworkers, like most human beings, made an effort to check themselves. However, until you say something, they can't do anything about it. I agree its a decency issue and not a sexism one.

What is indecent is that Adria Richards completely invented the bit about forking being a sexual reference ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 ), escalated her discomfort to the level of internet drama, got her employer SendGrid to support her, and didn't exactly go out of her way to petition PlayHaven to unfire one of the two guys involved. And she's now sticking to her guns even after profusive apologies…

I'm waiting for the T-shirts about Forking and dongles to come out. This is going to be a meme now.

Also, April 1st is around the corner. It would be classic if github removed the "fork" button in response to it being offensive.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#732

Post by rachelbaker »

To everyone angry at Adria for not "just asking them to stop": I am a female developer that attends 4-5 conferences per year. I have had experiences similar to that of Adria's, and I pretend I can ignore them. Why? Because confronting a guy (or guys) I don't know, in a room where my gender is clearly in minority, and explaining why I found something offensive is not an action I have been brave enough to take.

I applaud Adria for being braver than I could ever be. I am responsible for my actions (or lack of action), and you are responsible for yours. Hopefully, together we can keep our conferences and communities accepting and fun.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#733

Post by tiredofcareer »

wpietri wrote: post #641
shakesbeard wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They talked with Adisa, so they probably did recognize that she was a woman. As far as I've read they talked to each other, not her. > As a frequent teller of jokes, I always try to match the joke to the audience. If religious people in the US faced a 1 in 6 risk of physical assault for their religion, you can bet I would be very careful about telling any joke that might make them fearful. Wouldn't you? No, because…

> As far as I've read they talked to each other, not her. You should read her blog, then. > Also I'd like some source for that 1/6 people faces risk of physical assault for their religion. No, it's 1 in 6 women who will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Note the "if" in my statement. My point is that your example doesn't really work, because in the US people don't generally risk assault just for being a parti…

> You should read her blog, then.

So should you, since she made it fairly clear that she spoke to someone behind her and to her far left, and then the person next to him began the comments that set off this entire fiasco. I remembered that even without reopening it to read it again, just like I remember you punching all gay people in the stomach elsewhere in this thread by comparing us to rapists.

I understand that you are a self-described 'ardent feminist,' but please sit this one out. People like you are making this entire situation worse. This would be a simple moral ambiguity question ("is it moral to call someone out publicly on Twitter for a sensitive topic?") but instead we have to have the fucking sexism-in-tech fight with a sexual assault daily double and male feminists like you dropping the 1 in 6 statistic as if it has any relevancy to the topic whatsoever.

(It's pretty sad that I know to Ctrl+F for "1 in 6" in threads like these, and surprise, I found you! Thrice!)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#734

Post by darkarmani »

groby_b wrote: post #452
tomp wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her post is quite good, and provides a very good argumentation for her actions. For a moment, I almost agreed with her. Then I realized the problem, the same one that feminists are facing more and more; women want to be equal, but they want to keep certain privileges. They want to be accepted by men in tech as equals, but be spared sex jokes (that, btw, have nothing to do with tech, but have a lot to do with men; in…

Wait - being treated with professional courtesy is a privilege women have? Why did nobody ever tell me? Sex jokes have no place in the work place. Period. No matter the gender of the narrator or the audience.

> being treated with professional courtesy is a privilege Did any of the people involved act with professional courtesy?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#735

Post by shardling »

adamnemecek wrote: post #730
shardling wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty simple when you strip away the rhetoric, and let go of preconceived notions of what the words mean. Racism can kind of exist on an individual level between any two people. (X refuses to serve Y because they're from New Zealand.) But racism is only a social problem when the people with racist views have the power to enforce them. The power is key to the social dynamic; without power, what large scale effec…

Sounds like a pretty US-centric idea, yet it makes somewhat broad statements.

Well no; the power dynamics and the groups in question might shift from country to country, but the basic idea carries across.

That said, I'm sure a lot of academics do focus specifically on the US.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#737

Post by shardling »

geekam wrote: post #723
shardling wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did she? I just read the entire post, and I disagree. http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... It certainly exists within the context of gender issues at a tech conference, but she didn't even go so far as to label the jokes sexist -- just something that would make some women uncomfortable. (Which is obviously true, given her response!)

I think there are tougher but better ways to deal with the issue (like facing the two men) than to hide behind your twitter followers.

She "hid" by directly notifying the conference organizers through twitter. You can make the claim that it shouldn't have been done in public; you can't exactly also argue that she was hiding.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#738

Post by mwetzler »

rdl wrote: post #676
mwetzler wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI this can be interpreted as a physical threat against Adria. Probably not what you meant and you might want to revise.

I think it's pretty clear that "crucify" in the context of online discussion means "excoriate in discussion", not track down and nail to a physical cross. :)

Normally I would agree with you but I heard someone on HN posted her address and said they were going to "slit" her. The situation has escalated quite a bit and includes actual violent threats against Adria.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#739

Post by jessedhillon »

mamoswined wrote: post #728
jessedhillon wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, what I meant by gross was just the idea of these guys sitting around making innuendo within earshot of a public audience. Not the specific joke, do we even know what it was? Frankly, I have a hard time believing your position is genuine and well-considered. On the one hand, you understand why you wouldn't want employees talking this to a client. But as a walking billboard for your company in front of a rand…

"Actually, what I meant by gross was just the idea of these guys sitting around making innuendo within earshot of a public audience. Not the specific joke, do we even know what it was?" I guess you should read about the issue you are arguing about? "In front of a random audience," I mean come on, it's not like they were on stage. Maybe they were a little inconsiderate, I've said maybe kind of offensive things and the…

AFAICT this is all we got, from a primary source, about the joke: "began making sexual forking jokes"

That doesn't tell me what the joke was, it could have been anything.

The rest of your comment is hyperbole and straw man. Secret police? Gimme a break, they're walking ads for their company and they agreed to a code of conduct before attending. It's pretty unreasonable to say that you need a second chance to act like a jackass in that situation -- if you didn't know better, you should have.

This whole conversation just underlines to me that this is social bullying masquerading as feminism or "professionalism."

Sure. That's a way more reasonable conclusion than "I have to show a little caution and discretion when talking within earshot of an audience whose boundaries and sensibilities are not completely known to me."

No. You're totally being bullied by people who expect you to have a little basic courtesy in mixed company.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#740

Post by adamnemecek »

shardling wrote: post #735
adamnemecek wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a pretty US-centric idea, yet it makes somewhat broad statements.

Well no; the power dynamics and the groups in question might shift from country to country, but the basic idea carries across. That said, I'm sure a lot of academics do focus specifically on the US.

I meant her usage of it.
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