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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#451

Post by takluyver »

raganwald wrote: post #2

"Anyone can post a photo and get you fired." No, the photo did not get you fired, your employer's questionable policies got you fired. If indeed a phallus joke between two persons in a private conversation is not objectionable, why was this person fired? As I see it here, the more and more "transparent" our private lives become with cell phone cameras and always-on video glasses, the more protection employees need fr…

I don't think it's quite that simple. The employer certainly bears some responsibility, but making a public accusation to thousands of twitter followers can quickly create a lot of pressure on the company to visibly punish the joker.

PyCon's code of conduct specifically says "Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community."

Re: The PyCon Incident

#452

Post by groby_b »

tomp wrote: post #295
rhizome wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. My sense is that she herself didn't bat much of an eye until she decided that it was a problem. If you read her account, she acted in order to protect a photograph: I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop. I realized I had to do something or she would nev…

Her post is quite good, and provides a very good argumentation for her actions. For a moment, I almost agreed with her. Then I realized the problem, the same one that feminists are facing more and more; women want to be equal, but they want to keep certain privileges. They want to be accepted by men in tech as equals, but be spared sex jokes (that, btw, have nothing to do with tech, but have a lot to do with men; in…

Wait - being treated with professional courtesy is a privilege women have? Why did nobody ever tell me?

Sex jokes have no place in the work place. Period. No matter the gender of the narrator or the audience.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#453

Post by reeses »

mamoswined wrote: post #417
reeses wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be overqualified, but please review my resume... It's a poor decision, but if he was there "representing his company" (i.e., being paid while there) he probably tripped over a zero-tolerance policy on harassment.

People who really harass women know exactly how to get away with it. Making a dick joke might be offensive, but it saddens my heart to even think that it might be put in the same category as some of the legitimate harassment that I and other women have experienced. Harassment that was devastating and insidious.

I would like to think it's a temporary overcorrection. With the gender imbalance in higher education swinging the other way, one hopes that enough glass ceilings are eliminated that we can normalize to a state where "legitimate harassment" is four or five sigmas outside normal professional behavior.

You're right, it's not the same as your boss implying (or stating) quid pro quo, being touched against your will, or any of the other bajillion ways people can mess with each other.

Normally, if I had an employee in his situation, I'd ask him for his side once he returned. If he confirmed the incident, the reaction would be something on the range of,"you dumbass," to "you have a documented case of being a schmuck and have exposed us to legal complaints from coworkers. Re-take the mandatory two-hour California harassment training as a refresher."

Then again, I don't allow Python on my teams because Guido is insane, so I'd obviously avoid the situation completely. :-)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#454

Post by DanBC »

codexon wrote: post #449

Hmm this is interesting. This post is only 2 hours old with 535 points, yet it is ranked below "You just went to the Google homepage. What actually happened?" with 488 points at 7 hours old. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5408597 Is there some weighted voting going on?

Some people are flagging the post.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#455

Post by integraton »

jasonlotito wrote: post #441
integraton wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Public shaming given the circumstances was not.

> Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Speaking up to the individuals isn't always the easiest in a situation like that. It's easy to make that suggestion sitting behind a computer screen. So, she spoke up in the best way she knew how. In the end, the result between the 3 parties (the 2 guys, PyCon, and her) ended amicably. http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response…

PyCon attendee procedure for handling harassment:

https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i...

"Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member - all reports are confidential...The staff is well informed on how to deal with the incident and how to further proceed with the situation...Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."

Re: The PyCon Incident

#456

Post by shardling »

pizzeys wrote: post #404
shardling wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adria did not initially raise this as a "sexism" issue from what I can see -- just something the made her uncomfortable.

She didn't use the exact word 'sexism', but her blog post very much made it out to be a sexism issue.

Did she? I just read the entire post, and I disagree.

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...

It certainly exists within the context of gender issues at a tech conference, but she didn't even go so far as to label the jokes sexist -- just something that would make some women uncomfortable. (Which is obviously true, given her response!)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#457

Post by keli »

ceol wrote: post #374
tomp wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her post is quite good, and provides a very good argumentation for her actions. For a moment, I almost agreed with her. Then I realized the problem, the same one that feminists are facing more and more; women want to be equal, but they want to keep certain privileges. They want to be accepted by men in tech as equals, but be spared sex jokes (that, btw, have nothing to do with tech, but have a lot to do with men; in…

> women want to be equal, but they want to keep certain privileges. What privilege is this that she wants to keep? Women are already bombarded with sex jokes. The fact it's such an outrage she spoke up is testament to that.

it's not an outrage she spoke up. she overheard an inappropriate comment and proceeded to publicly drag these guys' reputations through the mud. between the two actions (private, inappropriate comments in a public space, or calling out the pitchforks), her action was clearly worse, and in real terms more damaging.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#458

Post by RougeFemme »

katbyte wrote: post #330
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

exactly, i have female friends that make far worse joke like that, and male friends who are greatly bothered by them.

I would not have reacted as she did. I would have either ignored it or said something directly to them. But. . .I have male friends who are offended by discussions of some of the things that we females say. And when I'm around them, I'll tone it down a bit. Not completely, both sides compromise. . .I say a little less than I normally would and they tolerate a little more than they normally would.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#459

Post by josh-j »

jasonlotito wrote: post #393
josh-j wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think assuming or mentioning negative talking points in the form of a question is a productive way to have a discussion.

So then what culture is she encouraging? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved Those are the two things she did. Call people out who broke a rule. She also went to PyCon organizers to resolve it. So, what culture is she encouraging, and why would we want to discourage it?

Personally, and I think this might be the case with most people here, I'm most worried by the public shaming of the two individuals. Them being kicked out of PyCon isn't as much a concern to me.

I think the culture that she's implicitly promoting is ultimately a suspicious and hostile one where there is no principle of charity but instead there's the inverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity). And not by the fact that she reported it to PyCon organizers, but by the fact that she then escalated it to the public. In this instance, I think she should have kept their identities anonymous in her tweets and blog post.

There are instances where I can imagine revealing their identities would be the right thing to do, but this doesn't come close to it by my judgement (for all that's worth).

Re: The PyCon Incident

#460

Post by hkolek »

ldh wrote: post #343
stephengillie wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "these jokes are sexist or offensive to women" was an axiom (in the logic sense) in my parents' religious household. It's incredibly confusing to see good and respectable people (like your friend) so eager to debase themselves with this humor.

It's not exactly great humor, but I'm confused as to why this is offensive to women specifically (let alone an axiom of sexism). Because it references male organs? They're not referring to females at all. Not to be too reductionist, but that leaves me thinking of two possible conclusions: 1. women are too delicate to handle any references to anatomy or 2. the "jokes" were simply crude and, while off-putting to anyone…

3. Penis Envy.
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