The PyCon Incident • Hacker News Board

Re: The PyCon Incident

#291

Post by josh-j » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

djcapelis wrote: post #83

peterhunt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone takes issue with talking to the PyCon organizers and even having them removed from the conference. The employer made a mistake for sure, but so did your friend. Skewering someone in public on the Internet like that is immature and irresponsible. There are a million better ways she could have dealt with this.

> Skewering someone in public on the Internet like that is immature and irresponsible. There are a million better ways she could have dealt with this. I'm pretty sure relating and disclosing a situation that happened in a public place fully to the best of her ability shouldn't be something we call irresponsible. In fact, women who do otherwise are often asked to disclose in exactly the manner she did. No matter how a…

"I'm pretty sure relating and disclosing a situation that happened in a public place fully to the best of her ability shouldn't be something we call irresponsible. In fact, women who do otherwise are often asked to disclose in exactly the manner she did."

That doesn't follow -- you're begging the question. Why is disclosing something public, if well detailed, not irresponsible when it can cause harm (as this situation did)? And why should people being previously asked to disclose such information make it a responsible action? Furthermore, do you have an example of such disclosures -- you speak as though you do?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#292

Post by Karunamon » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #279

zem wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here's the point: it's not only fair. in fact, by expecting sendgrid to can adria you're implicitly supporting what the other guy's company did, at which point you really have no complaint.

Ummm, my reading of the thread is that we're not going to do business with Adria's employer because of her actions. That's a different thing.

Indeed. And if her personal actions and the resultant bad press for Sendgrid causes them to ask the person in question to step down, well, going on the logic in this thread, the employer is the bad guy, not the person acting like a jackass in public.

..In which case the decision to stop or not do business with Sendgrid would be all the more justified.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#293

Post by basqio » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

djcapelis wrote: post #245

basqio wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why ridicule someone for making a personal choice to choose who he does business with? Adria is a part of the company's image and just like any other company they will be judged by her public actions.

So. Let me see if I've got this straight: Posting to HN about how you think people should coordinate and send e-mails to a company's sales department about how they don't want to do business with a company because they're bothering to stand by one of their employees and not fire them. -> A personal choice and any comments disagreeing with it is "ridicule". Posting a tweet on your twitter account. -> Public actions re…

Perhaps ridicule was the wrong word. My point is she is seen as a face of the company by many in the tech scene, anything she does publicly (yes twitter is public) will be seen by people and they aren't wrong to have this reaction. Nowhere in sergiotapia's post did he argue that they should fire her. Talk about strange conclusions.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#294

Post by TomGullen » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

The emerging trend of people thinking they can just take photos of anyone anywhere for the sole purpose of uploading to the web for groups of people to laugh at or make judgement of leaves a pungent aftertaste in my mouth. Sure you might be legally allowed to but it doesn't mean it's not incredibly rude and inappropriate, with total disregard/ignorance of potential consequence like we are witnessing at the moment.

I see it on social media sites, people who feel comfortable sitting on a bus and just lifting a camera up to snap someone going about their day who just happens to look different to someone else so everyone can have a laugh at them. Sometimes presented under a thin guise of intelligent wit when actually it's vacuous bullying. Totally oblivious or carefree to the fact the subject matter may have actually noticed them photographing them, I wonder how that makes them feel?

This situation feels associated to me. I just don't understand how anyone can be comfortable just snapping a picture of someone to immediately upload on the internet to share with people in a negative way. Are people starting to lose their common sense and decency?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#295

Post by tomp » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #215

katbyte wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as "a women in tech" (god i hate even saying it like that lol) i totally agree. i think what she did was absurd. It wasn't even a lewd or offensive joke. Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. If it was bothersome in anyway it was they were so loud she was paying more attention to them and they private conversations and not the speaker. Sh…

Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. My sense is that she herself didn't bat much of an eye until she decided that it was a problem. If you read her account, she acted in order to protect a photograph: I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop. I realized I had to do something or she would nev…

Her post is quite good, and provides a very good argumentation for her actions. For a moment, I almost agreed with her.

Then I realized the problem, the same one that feminists are facing more and more; women want to be equal, but they want to keep certain privileges. They want to be accepted by men in tech as equals, but be spared sex jokes (that, btw, have nothing to do with tech, but have a lot to do with men; in my group of (male) friends, they are completely normal, along with all other jokes). I don't think both are possible.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#296

Post by AnIrishDuck » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

paranoiacblack wrote: post #159

peterhunt wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about her being a woman. This is about responsibly dealing with a situation. "Exactly the manner she did?" No one has ever been asked to disclose a photo with faces on Twitter to 9k followers. The right thing to do is either deal with the person directly or escalate above them, whether you're a woman or not. Going straight to the mob is never the right answer.

> The right thing to do is either deal with the person directly or escalate above them, whether you're a woman or not. Going straight to the mob is never the right answer. Isn't this exactly what happened though? She posted on her feed and asked if someone could speak to them and the Pycon officials saw her post and did exactly that. You're treating this as if she posted on her feed something like, "Can the people wh…

I think that the PyCon staff would have been a better group to escalate to, not a 9000 person mob (one of whom presumably did the intelligent thing and notified the staff)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#297

Post by wpietri » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

ErrantX wrote: post #248

wpietri wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

> Women feel that a lot. No, no they really don't! Don't get me wrong, there are major gender issues within our society (not just the software industry). One of them is, this idea that ''all'' women are tender hearted souls who are ''constantly'' scared of any man that looks at them funny :) There is a broad difference between discomfort and fear. And whilst the latter is significant, the core problem is the former.

You should talk to more women about this.

I'm not suggesting women are scared little rabbits, running all the time.

I'm saying that they are at substantial risk of sexual assault and other predation (US lifetime chance of sexual assault: 1 in 6), and are frequently aware of situations where they might possibly be in danger. It's an entirely rational response.

I'm trying to help Joeboy see why well-meant and innocent-ish sexual jokes can sexualize a context, tripping that feeling of risk.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#298

Post by mamoswined » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #207

numbsafari wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really so hard to not make sexual jokes and references when in a public business forum that you would honestly stop attending conferences? What exactly do they add to the discourse on the actual technical issues being discussed?

It's a bit dehumanizing to be forced to act like sexuality doesn't exist. This wasn't propositioning anyone, it wasn't insulting anyone, it wasn't explicit. It was a few lame jokes. I (personally) have no problem watching myself in these situations, but it always feels artificial. I'm not sure what American society is doing to women, but it leaves some of them incapable of dealing with any amount of sexuality. (Again…

Yeah, if I wanted to be in such a stifled repressed environment I would have stuck with finance or accounting. I'm a woman- making bawdy jokes is part of my culture and personality. I almost feel it's slightly discriminatory against those of us who don't come from a certain background.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#299

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

ubasu wrote: post #209

blhack wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It went further than that, though. http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...

From this article: "I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop. I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so." Seems a tad melodramatic as a reaction to a private conversation. Seems to go with the Joan-of-Arc complex: https://twitter.com/adriarich…

[deleted]

Re: The PyCon Incident

#300

Post by vivin » Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

Can the guy(s) who got fired pursue legal recourse? Could they sue her for defamation or something? They got their picture taken and posted without permission, but I don't know if they can argue that they have a reasonable expectation for privacy at the conference. But what about losing their job and having their reputation tarnished? Maybe some legal types can weigh in.