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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#621

Post by jessedhillon »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #219
djcapelis wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior. I think we need to stop doing this bullshit in general. I'd much rather have our community check each other and shame each other on Twitter than having employers step in and decide that thing X or thing Y is not okay for their employees to say in their personal capacity at a conference or on Twitter. As far as I've heard, Adr…

So it is now "insane" to hold a company responsible for the actions of someone who was specifically representing that company in an evangelist role at an event? I can't believe this point even passed through your head much less ended up being typed out and passed off as a logical statement, where you are actually, get this, attempting to mock someone else. wtf man...

A major factor you have to always consider when reading HN comments on stories like this -- and I'm not even kidding here -- is that a large percentage of the HN population has no idea how to convince women to have sex with them. I mean, among online forums, I would place good money that HN's readership has one of the highest ratios of adult virgins (non-elective, i.e. not by choice)

Why do I think this? Because I've worked in SV and gone to one of the CS programs which is a major feeder into the SV engineering pool (Cal). And I doubt that the engineering programs at CMU, Stanford and other schools differ so wildly in social aptitude.

These guys are so bent out of shape over simply not understanding how to do it, the frustration and resentment is as thick as concrete. Every time one of these stories pops up, this place becomes indistinguishable from /r/MensRights -- the most entitled victims you've ever heard.

I mean, if you can't understand why someone would get fired for making gross, wildly inappropriate jokes within earshot of other attendees, while wearing their employer's name on their shirt and around their neck -- well, you must have a gigantic axe to grind.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#622

Post by reeses »

vor_ wrote: post #335

Being offended by that type of humor is certainly one thing, but I can't figure out why Adria seemed so upset by it when she publicly made the very same type of joke on Twitter with a friend of hers ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 ). As a result, I'm finding it difficult to understand where she's coming from.

Because it supports the theme of her consultancy and has proven to be effective in generating potential leads. There will always be people who agree with her version of events, not bother to dig further, and she will benefit financially.

That is the primary reason her response to the comments was an 8 instead of a 2. It's her business.

Think of it as the equivalent of you linking to your github repos or your essays on developer collaboration.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#623

Post by groby_b »

tomp wrote: post #546
groby_b wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're discussing Python at PyCon, no? I'm also not exchanging soup recipes, beauty tips, or nutrition experiences, because they're not appropriate either. Same goes for human sexuality. Not a relevant topic. As for the "lame double entendre", and being capable of dealing with it - I (and most women, I suppose) can deal with one. Or with two. Or three. But that's usually just the first 5 minutes of the day. It's a con…

> I'm also not exchanging soup recipes, beauty tips, or nutrition experiences, because they're not appropriate either. "Oh, man, you gotta try that new Mexican restaurant down the block, it's delicious." "Let me tell you about this new anti-herpes product, it might help you." ... I can totally imagine such statements being spoken amongst friends (not on stage, though), and nobody getting fired.

I'm not commenting on the "getting fired" part. That's a tricky decision, but keep in mind the people in question were there as "Evangelists". Which means you really want to watch what you say.

If you spoke about the cool Mexican restaurant during the presentation, I'd sure as hell call you out on it. But it's still different from the jokes in that it doesn't make anybody feel excluded. Sexual jokes do - they signal clearly to women that they are an entertainment object.

I'd equally call you out if you'd make jokes about other minorities. And honestly, nobody thinks racist jokes are appropriate - why do people still believe sexist jokes are cool?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#624

Post by mwetzler »

rdl wrote: post #288

Based on just this pastebin, I'd be inclined toward crucifying her. However, after reading her longer blog post ( http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... ), it seems pretty clear that the guys were in the wrong for a professional setting (as were several others at the conference). Ideally, another person who was less personally offended would have said something (such as a coworker -- if I hea…

Just FYI this can be interpreted as a physical threat against Adria. Probably not what you meant and you might want to revise.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#625

Post by pixelcloud »

tomp wrote: post #500
groby_b wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait - being treated with professional courtesy is a privilege women have? Why did nobody ever tell me? Sex jokes have no place in the work place. Period. No matter the gender of the narrator or the audience.

I disagree. I like jokes, even sex jokes, even at the workplace. However, it depends on company culture and policy, which should not be changed simply because one employee feels uncomfortable, even if it's a woman (or maybe the policy dictates that in such case the culture should be changed; nevertheless, gender shouldn't matter).

pyCon clearly set their expectations for their guests during this event. I think if the "community" has such a large issue with it, they can stop attending conferences that don't adhere to their social expectations. (pyCon would not get any smaller though)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#626

Post by wpietri »

blhack wrote: post #349
wpietri wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should talk to more women about this. I'm not suggesting women are scared little rabbits, running all the time. I'm saying that they are at substantial risk of sexual assault and other predation (US lifetime chance of sexual assault: 1 in 6), and are frequently aware of situations where they might possibly be in danger. It's an entirely rational response. I'm trying to help Joeboy see why well-meant and innocent-…

Are you seriously trying to draw a connection between two guys making a joke to each other about how the word "dongle" sounds like the word "dong"... ... to a person being sexually assaulted ?

I am seriously saying that I have talked with people who have been made uncomfortable by sexual jokes in non-sexual contexts, and that they have told me that part of their discomfort came from fear. Fear that they were in a situation where sexual harassment or sexual assault was a sudden possibility.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#627

Post by fingerprinter »

eridius wrote: post #62
minimaxir wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Adria's post: http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... I stood up slowly, turned around and took three, clear photos. I said back down, did another gut check and started composing a tweet. Three things came to me: act, speak and confront in the moment. I decided to do things differently this time and didn’t say anything to them directly. The true "forking" meaning was described in the HN p…

I don't want to take sides here, but I do take issue with the claim that the "forking" thing was fabricated, or was irrelevant, because the intent of the person who spoke it was not sexist or even meant as a joke. The fact is, the way language is interpreted by the listener is far more important than how it was meant by the speaker. And it should be pretty obvious that the phrase "I want to fork his repo" could be ea…

I was going to let your comment slide until I saw your followup 'downvote' comment below.

> The fact is, the way language is interpreted by the listener is far more important than how it was meant by the speaker.

This is absurd to the point that I call Poe's Law.

Nearly ALL language can be "offensive" in some way shape or form. Someone saying they are "offended" literally means nothing. Intent matters. A lot.

Now, couple intent with offense and you have something.

To make up something completely on the spot, imagine it is an equation: offended = O, not offended = NO, intended offense = IO, no intended offense = NIO.

NO + NIO = most civil dialogue.

O + NIO = mistake. Someone should speak up and say something.

O + IO = someone being a jerk, actively trying to hurt someone.

NO + IO = someone trying to be a jerk, the other person realizing it and not letting them do it (among other options here).

What happened here was O + NIO. No mature, rational person's first reaction in that situation is to go nuclear. A mature, rational person will A. ignore it and move on B. explain their offense C. note it, mull it over, look for future conversation to explain their side D. ignore it but use it as a teaching tool (in the abstract) if they have a platform (among other options, but those encompass most. How one chooses to react depends on many variables). Now, if someone takes the time to be mature and rational and actually explain their offense AND THEN the other side continues, well, then the equation has changed. What should have happened (best case) would be a civil dialogue explaining the offense. What should have happened (bare minimum) was anonymous reporting to pycon. What should not have happened was what happened.

So, to sum it up, someone's interpretation is only one side of the equation. To say it is "far more important" is, frankly, absurd.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#628

Post by clubhi »

groby_b wrote: post #452
tomp wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her post is quite good, and provides a very good argumentation for her actions. For a moment, I almost agreed with her. Then I realized the problem, the same one that feminists are facing more and more; women want to be equal, but they want to keep certain privileges. They want to be accepted by men in tech as equals, but be spared sex jokes (that, btw, have nothing to do with tech, but have a lot to do with men; in…

Wait - being treated with professional courtesy is a privilege women have? Why did nobody ever tell me? Sex jokes have no place in the work place. Period. No matter the gender of the narrator or the audience.

You don't sound like much fun. I work with many women and men... We are all make horrible sex jokes throughout the day. Are you the guy sitting by yourself at lunch?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#629

Post by katbyte »

btilly wrote: post #612
katbyte wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the forking joke yea, but that was even more benign, the dongle joke occurred afterwards after i assume some time had passed.

Why do you assume that some time had passed? I did not get that impression from her article. (But it is not specified either way, so time might have passed.)

in her article:

>Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one off to the right) said, “You can thank me, you can thank me”. That told me they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge had an add-on that said, “Sponsor”.

>They started talking about “big” dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered

So it seems that from the forking thing to the dongle thing there was at least 30-60 seconds, enough time to consider the person who turned around to interject into your conversation no out of it and no longer listening to every word your saying.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#630

Post by reeses »

vilda wrote: post #524
autarch wrote: post #186

This write up is ridiculously biased. If you read Adria's write up, which includes the photo, you can see that there's absolutely nothing private about the conversation. Look at the photos in http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... You can see that the two guys are in very crowded presentation room surrounded by other people. Their conversation, unless whispered, would be clearly audible by ma…

"Private" does not mean "noone can hear us". Private is more about the limited "address" of your conversation.

In the USA and most commonwealth countries, there are conditions that can eliminate your reasonable expectations of privacy. Sitting in the middle of a bunch of people means that any one of them is free to repeat what you have said.

I don't agree with the extent of the law in the USA, but in this case, common sense is in line.

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