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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#331

Post by ratat »

jasonlotito wrote: post #272
blhack wrote: post #7

I would also like a response from Sendgrid here. Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired. That's awful, and I join the people I see online right now in saying that I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior. --And to how far Adria has set back womens' rights here-- The c…

I'm confused? SendGrid didn't fire the guy. So, by boycotting the SendGrid, but not the company that fired the guy, the problem is being offended and speaking up, not the firing.

The problem is publicly posting a creepily-taken photograph of two friends at a conference, with entirely baseless slanderous claims of something you allegedly overheard them say to each other.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#332

Post by awj »

paganel wrote: post #270
danilocampos wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were private, it wouldn't have happened with people nearby to hear it and the photo wouldn't have depicted dozens of people surrounding.

So you're saying "private" is not in fact, well, "private". I grew up as a kid on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, in Eastern Europe, where as it happens walls had ears and "private" was not in fact "private". To see this stuff repeating 25 years later in the free world is scary.

How on earth can you expect privacy in a conversation that people literally cannot help but overhear? This was a crowd of people in an audience either waiting for or listening to a presentation.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#333

Post by wpietri »

shakesbeard wrote: post #261
wpietri wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

> That feeling of discomfort? The way your heart speeds up as you start wondering if you're safe? Women feel that a lot. Then I get out of the bar. Or look for some nice company (maybe talk to the bar man or find a woman in the bar?). Problem solved. > The jokes aren't what's offensive. It's when jokes sexualize a professional context in a way that makes women feel unsafe. Feel unsafe about what? Their safety? Those…

They talked with Adisa, so they probably did recognize that she was a woman.

I am not drawing an analogy. I was trying to help Joeboy understand how jokes can sexualize a context in a way that makes people feel uncomfortable.

As a frequent teller of jokes, I always try to match the joke to the audience. If religious people in the US faced a 1 in 6 risk of physical assault for their religion, you can bet I would be very careful about telling any joke that might make them fearful. Wouldn't you?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#334

Post by rdl »

wmt wrote: post #102

While everyone is riled up about Adria Richards getting offended and publicly shaming the person who made a joke about big dongles, you should keep in mind that she did not fire anyone. PlayHaven did. PlayHaven could have decided to be the responsible party and handle the incident constructively, but they did not want to do that. Even Adria, who still appears to think that the public shaming was a good thing to do, a…

Damn, maybe they have such successful HR/recruiting that they have a surplus of developers and just wanted to reduce headcount? :)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#335

Post by vor_ »

Being offended by that type of humor is certainly one thing, but I can't figure out why Adria seemed so upset by it when she publicly made the very same type of joke on Twitter with a friend of hers (https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425). As a result, I'm finding it difficult to understand where she's coming from.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#336

Post by GHFigs »

blhack wrote: post #31
ajross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's cool down a little here. An irresponsible tweet doesn't really constitute a "personal vendetta" (it's not even personal -- as far as I can tell she never knew their names). And while the post was (apparently, I don't know what the evidence here is) the proximate cause, you really can't say that she "got [him] fired", as she wasn't the employer nor did she advocate for his termination. It's just a bad situation…

It went further than that, though. http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...

I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so.

I'm finding it hard to reconcile this with the idea that women as a group aren't weak and in need of white knight protectors.

It sounds more like she was personally offended yet wanted "to be a hero", where elsewhere she recognizes that "It takes three words to make a difference:“That’s not cool.”"

I can sympathize with being uncertain about how to react to a situation when people are being rude, and it's often overlooked that calm personal confrontation is actually very difficult. But I think a good heuristic would be to save the heroics for when you meet a villain--and that doesn't seem to be the case here. Most rude people are just oblivious and too comfortable to suspect that people around them aren't.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#337

Post by djcapelis »

lclarkmichalek wrote: post #174
numbsafari wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I'm gonna assume that he didn't pay his way to the conference since he was wearing a company badge with the word "sponsor" on it. If that's the case.. then he's not there in his personal capacity. He is there representing his company, on their dime. They do, in fact, have something to lose if he cannot conduct himself in a reasonably professional manner.

They taught me this in primary school; when you're in public wearing the school uniform, you are representing the school. As such, any misbehaviour (i.e. smoking in the nearby underpass) will be punished by the school.

I am super thankful I never went to your school and I really wish we didn't inculcate kids with views like that.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#338

Post by josh2600 »

djcapelis wrote: post #125
josh2600 wrote: post #72

Why didn't she just stand up and say something in a loud and authoritative voice? Wouldn't that have lent at least as much credence to her words as her tweet did without the permanent public embarrassment? To put it bluntly, Social media is a complicated echo chamber fomenting sentiment into an explosion of mob mentality. Using it for this sort of point reflects negatively on the perpetrator, but also the victim. The…

> Why didn't she just stand up and say something in a loud and authoritative voice? Because it usually just leads to stigma against the person who speaks up and rarely yields actual change since most people just ignore it or rapidly justify it and minimize what happened and then immediately move on with their lives. You'd know this if you've ever had to deal with this type of thing in a room full of men. Turns out, i…

I don't think it's ok to just say "she's a woman so she automatically will be crucified if she speaks up". To me that's much more damaging than the initial sentiment of speaking up in the first place and the potential damage therein.

I believe that you're perpetuating the idea that women aren't on a level playing field by repeating that point. Whether or not it's true, repeating it does nothing to solve the problem.

Whereas my points offered a potential way to alternatively address the situation, yours seem to throw your hands up in the air and say "gee this is pretty bad huh. Somebody should really clean that up...".

In short, what would you say should've been done if being loud or being quiet have negative consequences?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#339

Post by fjorder »

Here's an interesting line of reasoning:

Had Adria posted the photo of the two men and made her claims about their conversation anonymously, would they have been taken as seriously?

Probably not. How many people are fired over a harmless photo and unsubstantiated anonymous claims? It was Adria's reputation and position that lent weight to her claims and got mr-hank fired. Now, let's follow up with another question:

The next time Adria Richards makes a similar claim, will it be taken seriously?

Almost certainly not.

The negative effects of Richards' actions were only made possible by being tied to her identity, which is now basically discredited. This is interesting, because it shows that social media is really starting to settle down and behave like more traditional manners of human interaction. Completely anonymous interactions are still possible, but lack power. Conversely, identity carries power, but if that power that is misused it quickly dissipates.

When I first read the reactions to this incident, I initially felt sympathy for mr-hank and outrage over his firing. This naturally led to anger against Richards, and I had to wonder if this anger might cause people to overreact and shame her excessively. However, this is exactly what would happen in a traditional human social setting, and it's healthy. She abused her power and hurt another person, failed to show any form of remorse, and now this reaction by the community is disarming her so that she can't immediately harm others. She will have to earn that power back, and it's not going to be easy. This is as it should be. The HN community also appears to be rallying around mr-hank and trying to see that he's looked after. Again, this is very heartening to see.

Like nature in Jurassic park, established patterns of human interaction in a community setting seem to find a way.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#340

Post by dubfan »

AnthonBerg wrote: post #106
jamesaguilar wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently it harmed someone enough that they were willing to complain to twitter about it. There have been a few good articles posted about why many women feel uncomfortable when the workplace is sexualized, especially in male-dominated industries. If you haven't read one, you may want to check into it.

I find it more plausible that it's about dominative social behavior, rather than harm to the person.

Considering Adria's remark on Twitter that she "feels like Joan of Arc", I would suspect this as well.
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