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Diamonds Are Bullshit

blog.priceonomics.com

231–240 of 774 posts

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about a '$3k donation to redcross' and buying a fake diamond so that all her friends will think you are still part of the herd?

Maybe the Red Cross can start making some sort of low-cost jewelry (perhaps similar to those yellow rubber wristbands?) that, while cheap in material cost, signify that the wearer donated a very large sum of money to the organization (or someone did so in their name).

Are you aware of the historical precedent? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Iron_Jewellery

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…

> It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. A sensible man only cares what other people think about him when it is to his benefit to do so. A foolish man cares what other people think about him all of the time. > People who buck social conventions sometimes become trend-setters and are incredibly successful for it, but more often just make life harder on themselves and the peop…

Therein lies the best career advice I could possibly dispense: just DO things. Chase after the things that interest you and make you happy. Stop acting like you have a set path, because you don't. No one does. You shouldn't be trying to check off the boxes of life; they aren't real and they were created by other people, not you. There is no explicit path I'm following, and I'm not walking in anyone else's footsteps. I'm making it up as I go. - Charlie Hoehn

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#233
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demonstrates the man's willingness to forgo the other things he could buy with the money for a gift for her that does not directly benefit him in any way; and 3) It demonstrates to the woman's peers her husband's social standing. To play devil's advocate here: If you substitute 'ring' with 'a $3k donation to redcross' you could still potentially qualify all of th…

It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…

Your logic is technically sound, and I'm not faulting you for thinking that way, but for me personally that's an unfortunately regressive way of looking at the world. I'm unsure where the idea that being principled requires being foolish comes from, but I myself would care more about the character of my daughter's husband (and incidentally, the assumed father of my grandchildren). I'm not even sure what one would be trying to optimize for with this line of thinking. Couldn't this same concept lead to: "I'd prefer a man who knows exactly how much to cheat and steal and hurt others, as long as he makes sure the direct cost to him is less than his benefit"?* Is that really a man you'd like to see raising your grandkids?

*Just to clarify, to avoid making this seem like a strawman: I'm creating a deliberately extreme example that to me seems like the logical extension of optimizing for "success" (or minimizing headwinds) at the expense of character (personified in your example by someone who's principled as opposed to a follow-the-herd type person). The purpose of this is to highlight the fact that this is someone you're accepting into your family, and the importance of that becomes particularly clear when you consider that the man he is will in large part shape the men and women you're grandchildren are.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#234
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister is still mad as hell at her husband for not having spent enough for their wedding (he spent about $25k), and I've heard her once or twice complain about the ring. I'll occasionally take shots at my sister for this (because, well, she's my sister and she loves taking shots at me too so it's fair). But my God I don't dare challenge the issue of spending extravagantly on rings/weddings with another woman (I on…

Not to mention that $25k is considered a completely reasonable amount to spend on a car. There's no doubt that the wedding industry is a racket (oh, did you want your dinner guests to have forks? That'll be $3 each. Water glasses too? ...) but also there's something to be said for not cheaping out on what's ostensibly one of the most important days of your life. FWIW, we managed to pay less than many people, while ge…

A car has some level of re-sale value though. UNlike a Diamond or a Wedding.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#235

Maybe I'm spoiled as a nerdy (and interested in nerdy) gay guy, but I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. It slays me that "tradition" is so important to people that they will waste such vast amounts of money and prop up such a gross, violent industry in the face of reason.

Nobody does it "for the sake of tradition". It is a web of expectations where the cost of bucking the expectations is great enough that buckling often is the more attractive option. It is also a well-entrenched example of costly signaling [1] in humans [2] (For the lazy, costly signaling basically says, a costly empty gesture is a strong indicator of mate quality, because only a high-quality mate can afford to waste…

It's not much of a tradition at all. De Beers started pushing the use of diamonds on engagment rings in the early 20th century as an attempt to sell more diamonds. A tradition that the average American thinks has always existed is rather new and was artificially created by one of the most despicable companies to have existed[1]. I do credit them for creating one of the most brilliant marketing schemes of the past 200 years, but personally, I find it lamentable that they did for our society's sake.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engagement_ring

> Before the 20th century, other types of betrothal gifts were common. Near the end of the 19th century, it was typical for the bride-to-be to receive a sewing thimble rather than an engagement ring.[1] This practice was particularly common among religious groups that shunned jewelry (plain people). Engagement rings did not become standard in the West until the end of the 19th century, and diamond rings did not become common until in the 1930s in the United States, as a result of an extensive nationwide marketing campaign by the diamond industry. The phenomenon arose even later in other countries.[1] Now, 80% of American women are offered a diamond ring to signify engagement.[1]

> The idea that a man should spend a significant fraction of his annual income for an engagement ring originated de novo from De Beers marketing materials in the early 20th century, in an effort to increase the sale of diamonds.[1] In the 1930s, they suggested that a man should spend the equivalent of one month's income in the engagement ring; later they suggested that he should spend two months' income on it.[1] In 2007, the average cost of an engagement ring in USA as reported by the industry was US$2,100.[9]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers#Controversies

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#236
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demons…

Except that in 1813, the diamond ring wasn't prevalent for engagements.

This is a "longstanding tradition" that was invented out of whole cloth in the 1930's and 1940's, by a series of De Beers advertising campaigns involving product placement with the Kardashian analogues of that era, culminating in the "A Diamond Is Forever" radio ads. Shaming America's male and female populace into buying into their cartel, the 'customary price' they recommended for diamond rings to demonstrate love rose continuously, not only in absolute terms, but as a share of personal income. It's an arms race with both zero objective value to anyone, and significant negative externalities.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#237
post #83

Gah! The writer needs to read this: http://www.its-not-its.info/

There's currently six occurrences of "it's" and 13 of "its" and all are correct. Ninja edit since your comment?

I like to think I just contributed to the internet in some small way. :)

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just in case this hasn't already been driven home: what you've demonstrated here is absolutely disgusting to a growing number of people. 1. Adherence to social convention for its own sake 2. Submission to a multinational construed as something positive 3. Imbalanced monogamous relationships based on opportunity cost and trading status for reproductive capacity 4. Spending money and life on creating more humans Probab…

We're a society of monkeys that use social convention as a fluid device for mediating social interaction. We are a species where, thus far, the burdens of motherhood are associated with a single gender. We are a species that derives deep satisfaction from reproducing (from hard-wired hormonal responses), and have structured our society so that it would collapse without the assurance of continued generations of future…

    We are a species where, thus far, the burdens of 
    motherhood are associated with a single gender
I agree with you here. I don't know why the HN crowd is refusing to see this point... an infant in its early months really needs the mother.

But I disagree on the point that the role of motherhood inextricably falls down on a woman's turf for the years to come. As a male I can say that I would be happy to be a stay-at-home-dad after the infant is of a certain age -- and I have met many women who're okay with this idea (of the man staying at home while the woman makes money).

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just in case this hasn't already been driven home: what you've demonstrated here is absolutely disgusting to a growing number of people. 1. Adherence to social convention for its own sake 2. Submission to a multinational construed as something positive 3. Imbalanced monogamous relationships based on opportunity cost and trading status for reproductive capacity 4. Spending money and life on creating more humans Probab…

We're a society of monkeys that use social convention as a fluid device for mediating social interaction. We are a species where, thus far, the burdens of motherhood are associated with a single gender. We are a species that derives deep satisfaction from reproducing (from hard-wired hormonal responses), and have structured our society so that it would collapse without the assurance of continued generations of future…

Appeal to tradition. Appeal to common practice. Naturalistic fallacy. Appeal to emotion.

Forunately none of these things prescribe (or justify) human behavior.

It's not an "alternate" world when many of us are already living here and welcoming others.

No, an end to population growth isn't good for economic growth, luckily that's not what life's about.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#240
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought part of the point is that it is conspicuous and expensive and, yeah, kinda wasteful. What better way to prove you have lots of money than by buying something expensive that depreciates dramatically in value once you buy it?

> What better way to prove you have lots of money than by buying something expensive that depreciates dramatically in value once you buy it? A balance statement would be a much better way.

It would look awkward tied to your finger, no? Diamonds are pretty and sparkly -- they are just radically too expensive at retail by any objective measure.

Really, I don't think diamonds would be much of a problem at all if it were possible to sell them for anywhere close to what they cost.

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