Earlier quoted context omitted.
how about a '$3k donation to redcross' and buying a fake diamond so that all her friends will think you are still part of the herd?
Maybe the Red Cross can start making some sort of low-cost jewelry (perhaps similar to those yellow rubber wristbands?) that, while cheap in material cost, signify that the wearer donated a very large sum of money to the organization (or someone did so in their name).
Diamonds Are Bullshit
231–240 of 774 posts
Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…
> It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. A sensible man only cares what other people think about him when it is to his benefit to do so. A foolish man cares what other people think about him all of the time. > People who buck social conventions sometimes become trend-setters and are incredibly successful for it, but more often just make life harder on themselves and the peop…
Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demonstrates the man's willingness to forgo the other things he could buy with the money for a gift for her that does not directly benefit him in any way; and 3) It demonstrates to the woman's peers her husband's social standing. To play devil's advocate here: If you substitute 'ring' with 'a $3k donation to redcross' you could still potentially qualify all of th…
It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…
*Just to clarify, to avoid making this seem like a strawman: I'm creating a deliberately extreme example that to me seems like the logical extension of optimizing for "success" (or minimizing headwinds) at the expense of character (personified in your example by someone who's principled as opposed to a follow-the-herd type person). The purpose of this is to highlight the fact that this is someone you're accepting into your family, and the importance of that becomes particularly clear when you consider that the man he is will in large part shape the men and women you're grandchildren are.
Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
My sister is still mad as hell at her husband for not having spent enough for their wedding (he spent about $25k), and I've heard her once or twice complain about the ring. I'll occasionally take shots at my sister for this (because, well, she's my sister and she loves taking shots at me too so it's fair). But my God I don't dare challenge the issue of spending extravagantly on rings/weddings with another woman (I on…
Not to mention that $25k is considered a completely reasonable amount to spend on a car. There's no doubt that the wedding industry is a racket (oh, did you want your dinner guests to have forks? That'll be $3 each. Water glasses too? ...) but also there's something to be said for not cheaping out on what's ostensibly one of the most important days of your life. FWIW, we managed to pay less than many people, while ge…
Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#235Maybe I'm spoiled as a nerdy (and interested in nerdy) gay guy, but I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. It slays me that "tradition" is so important to people that they will waste such vast amounts of money and prop up such a gross, violent industry in the face of reason.
Nobody does it "for the sake of tradition". It is a web of expectations where the cost of bucking the expectations is great enough that buckling often is the more attractive option. It is also a well-entrenched example of costly signaling [1] in humans [2] (For the lazy, costly signaling basically says, a costly empty gesture is a strong indicator of mate quality, because only a high-quality mate can afford to waste…
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engagement_ring
> Before the 20th century, other types of betrothal gifts were common. Near the end of the 19th century, it was typical for the bride-to-be to receive a sewing thimble rather than an engagement ring.[1] This practice was particularly common among religious groups that shunned jewelry (plain people). Engagement rings did not become standard in the West until the end of the 19th century, and diamond rings did not become common until in the 1930s in the United States, as a result of an extensive nationwide marketing campaign by the diamond industry. The phenomenon arose even later in other countries.[1] Now, 80% of American women are offered a diamond ring to signify engagement.[1]
> The idea that a man should spend a significant fraction of his annual income for an engagement ring originated de novo from De Beers marketing materials in the early 20th century, in an effort to increase the sale of diamonds.[1] In the 1930s, they suggested that a man should spend the equivalent of one month's income in the engagement ring; later they suggested that he should spend two months' income on it.[1] In 2007, the average cost of an engagement ring in USA as reported by the industry was US$2,100.[9]
Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demons…
Except that in 1813, the diamond ring wasn't prevalent for engagements.
Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#237Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just in case this hasn't already been driven home: what you've demonstrated here is absolutely disgusting to a growing number of people. 1. Adherence to social convention for its own sake 2. Submission to a multinational construed as something positive 3. Imbalanced monogamous relationships based on opportunity cost and trading status for reproductive capacity 4. Spending money and life on creating more humans Probab…
We're a society of monkeys that use social convention as a fluid device for mediating social interaction. We are a species where, thus far, the burdens of motherhood are associated with a single gender. We are a species that derives deep satisfaction from reproducing (from hard-wired hormonal responses), and have structured our society so that it would collapse without the assurance of continued generations of future…
We are a species where, thus far, the burdens of
motherhood are associated with a single gender
I agree with you here. I don't know why the HN crowd is refusing to see this point... an infant in its early months really needs the mother.But I disagree on the point that the role of motherhood inextricably falls down on a woman's turf for the years to come. As a male I can say that I would be happy to be a stay-at-home-dad after the infant is of a certain age -- and I have met many women who're okay with this idea (of the man staying at home while the woman makes money).
Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just in case this hasn't already been driven home: what you've demonstrated here is absolutely disgusting to a growing number of people. 1. Adherence to social convention for its own sake 2. Submission to a multinational construed as something positive 3. Imbalanced monogamous relationships based on opportunity cost and trading status for reproductive capacity 4. Spending money and life on creating more humans Probab…
We're a society of monkeys that use social convention as a fluid device for mediating social interaction. We are a species where, thus far, the burdens of motherhood are associated with a single gender. We are a species that derives deep satisfaction from reproducing (from hard-wired hormonal responses), and have structured our society so that it would collapse without the assurance of continued generations of future…
Forunately none of these things prescribe (or justify) human behavior.
It's not an "alternate" world when many of us are already living here and welcoming others.
No, an end to population growth isn't good for economic growth, luckily that's not what life's about.
Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought part of the point is that it is conspicuous and expensive and, yeah, kinda wasteful. What better way to prove you have lots of money than by buying something expensive that depreciates dramatically in value once you buy it?
> What better way to prove you have lots of money than by buying something expensive that depreciates dramatically in value once you buy it? A balance statement would be a much better way.
Really, I don't think diamonds would be much of a problem at all if it were possible to sell them for anywhere close to what they cost.