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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#71

Post by stcredzero »

ScottyE wrote: post #65
hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

But you can't force an interest in CS down people's throats. Holding "women for CS" events only makes the women in CS feel even more isolated from their male peers and does nothing to promote CS to women who do not know about it. Like you say, kids are very perceptive. The only way to truly eradicate the stereotype is to create a world in which the stereotype doesn't exist. And that is done by giving all kids, regard…

Subculture is relevant. Sometimes the borders of subcultures can follow gender lines. Sometimes such borders are arbitrarily hostile.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#72

Post by vxNsr »

noonespecial wrote: post #60
mindcrime wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here's the question: How old is your daughter? And where do you suppose she got the idea that programming is "a boy thing"? I suspect that the answers to these questions is a good lead to understanding why women are under-represented among programmers / techies.

That actually is the question I've been struggling with. She's only 7 and I've tried to keep her quite insulated from that kind of idea but it seems to just bleed in from all over the place. Since I've tuned out powerless to stop the bias from getting in, I've started to really think about the best way to help her rise above it.

I would answer pop culture, if she's watched any Disney show or movie ever, it immediately shows her exactly what is "acceptable" for a girl to do (Grrr, I hate Disney and that is gonna be the one channel I will never let my children watch, not to say there aren't worse channels but Disney is consistently bad).

Someone (in the HN community) should do an in-depth blog post about how pop culture screws up our children's perceptions of what is appropriate and acceptable for them to reach for.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#73

Post by RougeFemme »

noonespecial wrote: post #60
mindcrime wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here's the question: How old is your daughter? And where do you suppose she got the idea that programming is "a boy thing"? I suspect that the answers to these questions is a good lead to understanding why women are under-represented among programmers / techies.

That actually is the question I've been struggling with. She's only 7 and I've tried to keep her quite insulated from that kind of idea but it seems to just bleed in from all over the place. Since I've tuned out powerless to stop the bias from getting in, I've started to really think about the best way to help her rise above it.

I think that's the solution. . .helping her rise above the bias. The bias will always be there - or at least for the next few generations. At 7, I wouldn't necessarily address the biases and where they come from - just teach her to rise above them. It's a good life lesson, anyway. . .not to worry about what others think, just do what you want (as long as there is nothing unethical or illegal about it, obviously.) When she's older, you can acknowledge that the biase exists and give her more concrete examples of how to handle it going forward.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#75

Post by edmccard »

gonehome wrote: post #28
Scaevolus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it worse than nothing? The logic seems to be: have imbalance partially caused by stereotypes -> encourage minority to lessen imbalance -> hope stereotypes change and balance becomes self-sustaining. Shifting cultures is hard. Lacking perfect solutions, maybe plausible ones will suffice?

It's a difficult problem and I don't pretend to know the answer. I do think that these kind of separate events may do more harm than good.

Do you think they will result in fewer women in CS? Or is it some other kind of harm?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#76

Post by theorique »

solistice wrote: post #39
gurkendoktor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that it is a "club" with absolutely zero obligatory social interaction. I'm self-taught via the internet. On many remote projects, I see neither my clients nor any coworkers for months. I don't care about meet-ups or conferences. It is really hard to understand what is making it harder for women to do a job like mine. (My guess is that the education Now if you are talking about programming communities , then I…

"U a gurl on ze interwebs? I call le fake". Maybe it's that kind of attitude. I find it intresting that "No girls on the internet" originally meant "No gender bias on the internet", but the meaning was perverted. But statements like that (I sometimes make them myself in jest, but you never know how the opposite side will interpret it),they just add to the exclusion of girls in programming.

My sense is that most of the time people say those things ironically, as well as certain harsher catchphrases. But new people to the "internet culture", or those with less self-confidence, are likely to take it more personally than it's intended.

It's a shame that such "silly" things can push people out of good industries, but there you have it. It's not the first or the tenth time someone says something like that, but if a girl gets a "no girls allowed" vibe all the time (implicit or explicit), it takes a will of iron to really resist that kind of environment.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#77

Post by javajosh »

timr wrote: post #51
javajosh wrote: post #33

1. What's the CS gender ratio? Assuming it's bad... 2. Is it bad because anyone is actively discouraging girls? 3. Is it bad because girls just tend not to like it? This post assumes #1, undermines those who claim #2 (anecdotally), and reenforces #3. And I find this very, very easy to believe. Computer science is an unusually unforgiving discipline, and it takes an odd combination of arrogance and masochism to get th…

"Computer science is an unusually unforgiving discipline, and it takes an odd combination of arrogance and masochism to get through it." That's just a gigantic load of horseshit, and the inference that women don't go into CS because it's hard is insulting to women. There are more women in physics than in CS. Is that a more forgiving discipline? How about biochemistry, or cell biology? Both are getting near parity, ev…

Physics solutions can be get partial credit, according to the proclivities of the grader. So yes, it's more forgiving (and I say this as a person with a BS in physics.) I would argue that even medicine is more forgiving, since a) most mistakes do not result in immediate death, and b) malpractice insurance. Get back to me when CS gets malpractice insurance!

You also missed entirely the self-deprecating irony. I don't blame you though because, assuming your a programmer, you've taken on the too-literal qualities of that infernal machine you spend all day trying to please. I'm sorry.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#78

Post by ufmace »

The attitudes in this thread seem a little disturbing to me. Let me illustrate with a different example:

There are a number of other fields that are consistently dominated by women in the way that programming and CS are by men. Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing, HR, administrative assistants, and others. Why is there no effort to bring more men into these fields? Is there some "old-girls club" that's keeping the men out? Do we need to set up some affirmative action programs at employers, outreach programs to men in high school and college, men-only nurse clubs, etc? It doesn't happen, because nobody seems to care. Just try and see how much googling it takes to even find out what the actual gender ratios in those professions are. After a little looking around, I found that, according to one article, teaching is 67-86% female, and according to Wikipedia, nursing in the US is 94.6% female (!).

There are a lot of other fields where men are heavily dominant. Firefighters, soldiers, police, etc. I don't see anywhere near the level of pressure to bring women into these fields as there is for CS/Programming.

The whole CS/Programming field is just another field heavily dominated by a particular gender. Why is it different or more special than any of these other fields? Why does this field need specific efforts to address the gender ratio? Why is this a Problem that demands all sorts of high-level money and attention to address?

I have nothing against any person trying to get into any field they care to. Programming can be a tough field, but if a woman, or anybody else, has the interest, brains, and drive, then more power to 'em. Anyone who tells a girl that they shouldn't get into the field because girls can't do it or it isn't feminine is a jerk and should be ignored, and should be sacked if they take action to block her progress.

So the gender ratio in CS/Programming is heavily male-biased. So what? Maybe women just don't tend to be interested in it. I don't see this as a problem that we need to work on solving. Let people do what they want to do, and if that leads to a gender imbalance in some fields, that's okay.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#80

Post by socillion »

solistice wrote: post #39
gurkendoktor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that it is a "club" with absolutely zero obligatory social interaction. I'm self-taught via the internet. On many remote projects, I see neither my clients nor any coworkers for months. I don't care about meet-ups or conferences. It is really hard to understand what is making it harder for women to do a job like mine. (My guess is that the education Now if you are talking about programming communities , then I…

"U a gurl on ze interwebs? I call le fake". Maybe it's that kind of attitude. I find it intresting that "No girls on the internet" originally meant "No gender bias on the internet", but the meaning was perverted. But statements like that (I sometimes make them myself in jest, but you never know how the opposite side will interpret it),they just add to the exclusion of girls in programming.

That attitude/meme exists because a large portion of people who go out of their way to appear female on the internet are actually male.

5 years ago it was an extremely easy way to get free stuff in games.

If you're representing yourself as a girl online, people will assume you're doing that specifically to get preferential treatment - of course stereotypes like that aren't universally true, but enough people do that to reflect negatively on anyone else.

edit: this is mostly about gamers.

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