Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir • Hacker News Board

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#181

Post by zem » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:21 PM UTC

pilgrim689 wrote: post #10

I don't understand all the negative reactions. Canonical is recognizing various problems in making GNU/Linux mainstream. They are then innovating at a deeper level (fixing root causes rather than duct-taping) to ultimately attempt to really attract the layman to a mobile or desktop GNU/Linux distro. Devs don't need to target Mir if they don't want to, Linux users can switch to another Debian if they don't like it, an…

especially since people have been slamming canonical for years for being mere repackagers who were not contributing any significant code to the ecosystem.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#182

Post by chmike » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:24 PM UTC

prodigal_erik wrote: post #174

Remoting over a network with latency is not even an afterthought; none of those words appear in this spec at all. I'm worried that a new display system might start getting traction in the industry while assuming there's only one computer in the world I care about and that I'm sitting in front of it, because that would be a huge step backwards.

This exactly what worried me after reading this anoucement. If there is no remote display capability, it will be a regression.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#183

Post by Sanddancer » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:27 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #132

Sanddancer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upstart was used because it was better than traditional init, and was used by Fedora as well. Then again, Linux could have had a much better init system many years ago, but the GPL zealots wouldn't hear of having launchd, and its less restrictive license, be used.

I don't see the problem in wanting to keep the guts of the OS forced-free by license. If any of the deepest components of the Linux stack were MIT or BSD licensed, it wouldn't take long for some business to fork it into a proprietary blob they push for market adoption and you lose the freedom deep in the OS.

With something like init, I would have to disagree. The biggest problem with this decision is that they ended up with an inferior project that wasn't nearly as flexible as the open options. While there are certain areas where keeping things under a restrictive license like the GPL may be useful, the init system is one where I can't see of any way how a closed system would offer any sort of competitive advantage.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#184

Post by keithpeter » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

obviouslygreen wrote: post #177

keithpeter wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I don't know if Debian has a similarly friendly desktop distribution " Debian Wheezy (currently testing but which will be the stable release soonish) provides Gnome 3.4 desktop but with the options of xfce4, KDE and lxde. A recent install using defaults onto a low spec netbook was basically easy. See http://www.sohcahtoa.org.uk/pages/linux_debian-wheezy-instal... When Wheezy goes stable there will be live images wh…

Thanks; I'm aware of Debian's release cycle, but am not entirely sure how "non-Linux-person-friendly" the stable release is. Which is my own fault, since I've settled for Ubuntu for so long. It's great to hear it installs well on netbooks! I'm typing this on an Ubuntu Aspire One, though I always use OpenBox to replace whatever Ubuntu comes with since I'm comfortable with it. Will definitely check out Debian stable as…

I'm a 'non-windows-admin' user and recently had to install Win7 and drivers on a thinkpad T60 for my sister as my usual CentOS/Ubuntu/Debian wasn't what she wanted. Took me a bit of time and some googling.

I think anyone that can reinstall Windows with drivers could manage a Debian install provided they check the wifi card (available firmware) and graphics drivers (not Optimus basically) first.

Gnome 3.4 with Gnome Shell is perhaps a bit heavy for an Atom based netbook although I find it usable.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#185

Post by binarycrusader » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:32 PM UTC

If this is going to have any real hope of replacing X it also needs to be licensed as liberally as X is, otherwise, it's doomed in many commercial sectors. (Current mir license appears to be GPLv3.)

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#186

Post by ElliotH » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:35 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #35

pilgrim689 wrote: post #10

I don't understand all the negative reactions. Canonical is recognizing various problems in making GNU/Linux mainstream. They are then innovating at a deeper level (fixing root causes rather than duct-taping) to ultimately attempt to really attract the layman to a mobile or desktop GNU/Linux distro. Devs don't need to target Mir if they don't want to, Linux users can switch to another Debian if they don't like it, an…

> the Layman discovers that Linux can possibly be just as shiny as Mac OS. Why do we want the layman to be using Linux? To give Valve more Linux customers or something? We should let them be. Laymen will invariably be better served by Microsoft or Apple, trying to win them over in some sort of misguided drive to "win" market-share seems foolish. Linux should focus on it's niche, and Microsoft and Apple theirs. This m…

I agree. But then the great thing about Linux is we don't have to use the layman distribution.

If someone wants to put the time and effort into making something that is great for my grandparents but awful for me then more power to them.

Meanwhile the rest of us can stick to the distros that are suited to our needs. I think this state of affairs is much better than any one operating system ruling. So long as we have binary compatibility among the Linuxen then I'm happy.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#187

Post by prg318 » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:35 PM UTC

wmf wrote: post #160

shmerl wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What worries me is fragmentation of drivers. It can be a very serious problem. Possible scenario: Nvidia wait for broader Wayland adoption to release their driver for Wayland. Comes along Canonical and drops Mir on our heads. Nvidia scratch their heads and say - forget Wayland. Not sure if they'll say forget Mir as well - they have better things to do than to deal with this mess, but all this doesn't sound good alrea…

It looks like both Wayland and Mir are supposed to use KMS drivers.

Do you have a link to this assumption? I would really like to know.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#188

Post by oneweekwonder » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:35 PM UTC

shmerl wrote: post #163

oneweekwonder wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you say Ubuntu is taking game or driver development by force or illegally? As far as I can tell there is no other competition in this space, so it is actually very open and its not like Ubuntu is not willing to share. I agree with the notion, but we still need to see if it will play out that way. For now its only on the table, with a lot of other cards we are not even aware of.

I didn't say anything about "illegally". It's all open - "do what you want". It's the question whether it benefits the global Linux community, or creates unnecessary internal competition / fragmentation and spreading of resources. Competition for drivers can start (if they won't be compatible), look at Android targeted hardware and see how sick it is now (it's SurfaceFlinger only, try getting Wayland drivers and good…

Sorry I did a define on usurping and ended up being pedantic because I don't believe its true.

I understand all the concerns about how it will impact the global community; But isn't it generally seen that competition is good, and who's resources is it spreading or fragmenting?

* A distribution who tries to cater to everyone? * Other companies employees who now need to understand and support technology it doesn't want to use? * "Linux" users in double quotes because they want to be able to administrate all their different boxes with different distro's using the same old tools of 20 years ago? * FOSS coders who spend their free time fixing bugs and adding features to projects they like and use?

Call me ignorent and please point out why. But I don't see any of the above as resource issues. The only problem is the "Linux" users and I feel if they start to see themselves as distro's users instead of a name given to a Kernel and Foundation, that problem will sort it self out.

By your account it seems like it already started and Ubuntu might be able to bring in a second or third option.

By the looks of it the greater community wanted Ubuntu to rather spend time in bending tools to do what it needs to do, to benefit the community. Without realising Ubuntu is a product of a company that has goals and can not always take the long road of community inputs, but at least it tries do be open as much as it can.

Which gets criticized a lot because it is a leader in a "linux" environment it mostly created from scratch.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#189

Post by hazov » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

noselasd wrote: post #145

hazov wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which standards are these? Besides using the kernel compiled with gcc and using dynamic linked ELF binaries as their default and a libc on the system the only standard that I ever knew of was LSB, which I believe does not include anything about graphics (I can be wrong).

They're defacto standards. Not formal standards. The fact that you can compile and run a GTK program that will run on most linux and even other unix like systems without problem. It means that someone creating a program, proprietary or open source, can, with little effort run that program on most linux distros. We have quite a handful of internal GUI tools, some use Qt, some use GTK, written in python and some in C o…

I actually do share your fear. That's the reason I run Debian. I really hope this does not destroy Ubuntu as a Linux distribution (which I believe is the standard you and the poster I answered was referring to), as long as it remain based on Debian I believe there's little to fear.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#190

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 9:45 PM UTC

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #111

chc wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the "spirit of open-source software development" can't stand for distro maintainers to have strong control over what goes in their own distros, this open-source spirit sounds pretty authoritarian itself. If (for example) I want to maintain my own window manager for my distro and I provide the source under a free license but don't accept outside contributions into my own distribution, what is wrong with that? Isn't…

Agreed. So many geek people hating Ubuntu this days, probably because they feel "betrayed" as they make Linux more user friendly. Most of them had contributed zero to Linux, so I don't know where this entitlement sense and emotional response comes from. If you don't like it, go use whatever you want.

[deleted]