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Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

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Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#151

Post by LukeShu »

zanny wrote: post #124
LukeShu wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I parsed the conversation: pilgrim689: Why is everybody hating on Canonical for ditching X11? sneak: Because they're "Linux idiots" who love X11. ihsw: They don't love X11, they just hate Canonical. ihsw is saying that the change isn't getting negative reactions because of the change itself, but because it is being made by Canonical. edit: I accidentally using the wrong verb form.

I thought everyone was hating on Canonical for ditching X because rather than support the fledgling standard replacement for X, Wayland, they once again (just like with systemd vs upstart, compiz vs mutter/kdm) go off and do their own thing. And if it turns out like either of those, they end up with an inferior barely maintained product that gets pushed to the sidelines once they show it off on a showroom floor.

Skimming the article, Canonical has some legitimate criticisms of Wayland, and are working on something that doesn't have those problems. Yay, this would be good! Except that it's by Canonical, and as you said, "Canonical never delivers". (That wasn't a quote from you, it was an iteration of "OP (never) delivers")

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#152

Post by mercurial »

IgorPartola wrote: post #24
hmo09 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the technical considerations, Linux and its surrounding ecosystem has a long history of many different companies co-operating on core software. Canonical's philosophy seems to fly directly against that - so far we have: Launchpad / Upstart / Unity / Mir Launchpad is free-software by name only, and Canonical actively discourage you to setup your own instance. Upstart hasn't been widely adopted outside of…

Upstart is a bad example. pacman is a package manager only used by Arch Linux and nowhere else. Should Arch abandon it because it hasn't seen wide use yet? Better yet, there are plenty of package managers that are better than both aptitude and pacman ( http://nixos.org/ ). Should we abandon the technically inferior solutions for the technically superior ones? Unity is the same way: it is open source. If you don't lik…

> Upstart is a bad example. pacman is a package manager only used by Arch Linux and nowhere else. Should Arch abandon it because it hasn't seen wide use yet? Better yet, there are plenty of package managers that are better than both aptitude and pacman (http://nixos.org/). Should we abandon the technically inferior solutions for the technically superior ones?

A couple of points:

- one example does not plenty make

- Nix has a really interesting technical design. However, it trades the ability to patch security holes across your entire system for the ability to install multiple packages side by side and have atomic upgrades.

More importantly (I was lying about the two points), the package manager is tied intimately to the guts of the distro, it's much less shocking than having Ubuntu implement Unity.

Now, we'll see what becomes of Mir. Whatever mindshare Upstart had went straight to systemd as soon as it came out. If Mir is primarily an expression of hubris, I expect it will follow Upstart in obscurity. If Canonical manage to convince enough developers in the community, they may get something going.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#154

Post by monkeyfacebag »

jjcm wrote: post #70
kunai wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings Exactly. Standards exist in the GNU/Linux world for reason. Mir, Unity, etc. all don't seem to play too well with other distros and are very tightly integrated with Ubuntu; if this continues Ubuntu might turn into a slightl…

Standards are great and all, but holding on to those standards is what's keeping back the UX of linux. Gnome3 is familiar, but very dated. X is supported by all, but it's a tangled mess that everyone hates. Yes Ubuntu is straying from the pack, but I'd rather have them stray and the rest follow when they find something good then have the entire linux community sit in the same place they have been for years. Regardles…

> Gnome3 is familiar, but very dated.

Have you used Gnome 3? Familiar and dated are not words I would use to describe it. The Gnome team is clearly focused on user experience and without rendering judgment as to whether or not they've succeeded (disclosure: I think they largely have), it's immediately obvious to new users of Gnome 3 (see Torvalds for the canonical case) that the product is not clinging tightly to familiar design patterns.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#155

Post by zanny »

caycep wrote: post #23

The other possibility - I just saw an article on phoronix noting the adoption of the Android window server layer (SurfaceFlinger or something like that) on ubuntu mobile. Not familiar at all with android underpinnings, but would that be another alternative to Mir? i.e. more modern window server, actively developed by Google dollars, etc?

SurfaceFlinger is missing a lot of essential desktop display protocol components, like native windowing, chrome allocation, it only uses openGL ES, and isn't environment agnostic at all.

Also, completely opinionated, but after reading some of the SF code in the AOSP, it seems like just as much of a mess as X is implementation wise. It is all over the place.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#156

Post by keithpeter »

pnathan wrote: post #51
acabal wrote: post #33

Maybe this is a good idea, I don't know about X/Wayland enough to say. But it worries me that Ubuntu is increasingly striking out on its own. What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings. It's also less knowledge to have to keep in your head for system administration st…

I switched my personal computer from Ubuntu some time ago. It's kind of startling when you see the divergence from core Linux tooling that Ubuntu's been doing. I believe this is the kick in the pants my team at work needs to evaluate moving to Debian deployments instead of Ubuntu.

Yup, I can understand that, but it looks like Canonical are moving to phone/tablet/turn key device/fridge market anyway.

I think there is room for Canonical with a slick tablet OS and Debian/RHEL clones/The Others (Arch/Slack &c) as 'traditional' OS

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#157

Post by raverbashing »

zanny wrote: post #129
raverbashing wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you can set up PulseAudio for LAN audio streaming with padevchooser (GUI)." Yes, and? I understand this is a useful feature for some people, but I'm just interested in listening to music and PA does not me allow to do that without frequent crashes and bugs I don't care about the features of a car if it stops working at random. And yes, this has happened on every distro I tried since PA started being bundled. Every s…

Bugs can be fixed. Pulse is newer than Alsa and more complex, you should expect bugs. If you don't have a problem with the implementation details of PA (software mixing, optional software equalizing, networked audio, stateful audio adaption to devices) then just report the bugs and make it better. Don't whine and try to fragment the Linux space any worse than it already is, especially with Mir's announcement.

Yes, I should expect bugs soon after release

But PA is 8 years now.

I don't remember any software being so problematic as PA in the Linux world. Some have more problems, yes, but they usually have a limited deployment.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#158

Post by oneweekwonder »

pnathan wrote: post #57
pilgrim689 wrote: post #10

I don't understand all the negative reactions. Canonical is recognizing various problems in making GNU/Linux mainstream. They are then innovating at a deeper level (fixing root causes rather than duct-taping) to ultimately attempt to really attract the layman to a mobile or desktop GNU/Linux distro. Devs don't need to target Mir if they don't want to, Linux users can switch to another Debian if they don't like it, an…

Basically, Canonical appears not to be publically consulting with the other distros (e.g., RH, Gentoo, Arch) about their changes. If they were, and there was a general consensus of a plan, I would personally not be bothered at all. But they seem to be content to pursue unilateral forking of what Linux means, and IMO that's not ok.

Canonical is a business, I believe they do care for Linux because otherwise I don't see why they will be part of the Linux Foundation. But they are a business.

And like most businesses they need to make unilateral decisions. The only difference is that Canonical makes these decision public knowledge while it is trying to achieve a hectic roadmap, for business purposes.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#160

Post by wmf »

shmerl wrote: post #120
oneweekwonder wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article, and I'm sorry if this seems condescending, I would truly love to have a conversation about this, but I believe your question is to vague: * The input event handling partly recreates the X semantics and is thus likely to expose similar problems to the ones we described in the introductory section. * The shell integration parts of the protocol are considered privileged from our perspective and we'd ra…

What worries me is fragmentation of drivers. It can be a very serious problem. Possible scenario: Nvidia wait for broader Wayland adoption to release their driver for Wayland. Comes along Canonical and drops Mir on our heads. Nvidia scratch their heads and say - forget Wayland. Not sure if they'll say forget Mir as well - they have better things to do than to deal with this mess, but all this doesn't sound good alrea…

It looks like both Wayland and Mir are supposed to use KMS drivers.
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