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Teach kids to farm, not code.

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Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#121

Post by catshirt »

nmridul wrote: post #79
tomjen3 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter where stuff comes from? I haven't the foggiest idea where my wood flooring came from, where my windows came from, or where my TV came from, nor my water, electricity, or the waste disposal guys who pick up my garbage. Yet for some reason it matters where my food comes from? Really, why?

Take it this way. While playing a computer game, my non-technical friends don't know how the game was written, how the buttons were designed, how the server is handling all those multiple players, or how the protocol handles all the communication. They don't try to see behind the scenes and so they just appreciate the game and nothing more. As a software engineer with whatever limited knowledge I have about those thi…

"Same with life. The more you understand, the better you appreciate it."

fair enough. "learn farming" is not necessarily the next logical step though.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#123

Post by jonathanjaeger »

edw519 wrote: post #78

I don't think we should encourage anyone to do anything. We should discourage them. Let me explain... I take my example from this traditional practice of Rabbis: never accept a convert until they have been turned away twice before. Make them make 3 attempts to show their determination. Why? Because Judaism is hard. If they're not committed, they'll either give up or do just enough to satisify the minimum requirements…

Reminds of what Seinfeld would tell kids who told him they wanted to be comedians. He would say 'No you don't, you'll never make it.' If they could take the criticism and go at it regardless, then maybe they could do what it takes to make it (the hard grueling path of being a standup comedian). Analogous to the startup world.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#124

Post by ronyeh »

jasonlotito wrote: post #110
edw519 wrote: post #78

I don't think we should encourage anyone to do anything. We should discourage them. Let me explain... I take my example from this traditional practice of Rabbis: never accept a convert until they have been turned away twice before. Make them make 3 attempts to show their determination. Why? Because Judaism is hard. If they're not committed, they'll either give up or do just enough to satisify the minimum requirements…

Except you don't have to become a chef to learn to cook.

I agree with this sentiment. Learning how to cook teaches you how to appreciate food, and helps you think differently about how food is prepared and even consumed.

Learning how to code, even if you don't become a professional programmer, will help you appreciate the software you use. It may also help you think differently about life, become better at problem solving (debugging IRL!), or at minimum, get frustrated at all the software you use on a day-to-day basis, because you know you would have designed it better. ;-)

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#125

Post by DamnYuppie »

tomjen3 wrote: post #75
Heliosmaster wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Because people forgot in a hanfdul of years (that's what it is, compared to the span of human history) what was slowly learned over the course of centuries and millennia. And the result? That kids nowadays almost think that foods magically pops out from the shelf at the supermarket. Specialization (in the sense that nobody does everything, every…

Why does it matter where stuff comes from? I haven't the foggiest idea where my wood flooring came from, where my windows came from, or where my TV came from, nor my water, electricity, or the waste disposal guys who pick up my garbage. Yet for some reason it matters where my food comes from? Really, why?

Because you can live without all of those except for one.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#126

Post by Bjorkbat »

Funny they should mention this, when I first went to college I majored in Horticulture, the idea being that I would one day be an organic farmer.

Turns out that's a lousy way of learning the trade. They'll teach you a little bit of the hands-on stuff, but pretty soon it's all plant physiology. If you really wanted to learn, you had to go out and farm, not learn how the Krebs cycle works.

So, after having worked as a farmhand for a few other farmers, I dropped out, tried share-farming for a while. Worked well, other than the fact that the drought in Texas was breaking records, which wasn't good if you're growing vegetables, not to mention the high-temps and a lack of a greenhouse. In 6 months I was pretty much done for.

Still, I learned a lot, so much so that I figured I was probably smart enough to major in something more intellectually stimulating, so I went with engineering, found out I like programming a lot, and eventually settled in Computer Science.

Long story short, I think he's onto something, farming isn't just physically demanding, it requires thought, especially if you don't want to use nasty chemicals. I may not be the best coder in the bunch, but I've found I can figure it out a little faster than classmates who brag that they learned their first language when they were in grade school. I learned my first language, C, when I was 21.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#127

Post by DamnYuppie »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #8

In competitive environments, low-tech occupations tend to lose as a group. Take any mass farming. Tea collectors, for example, I believe they're paid so little they are in constant poverty. Why are they paid that way? They collect all the tea people around the world drink. Paying them the increase of the cost of a tea bag by 1 cent will make them comparatively rich. Why isn't it done? They have no bargaining power. A…

This just goes to show you have very little knowledge of how farming is done in the US. Here farming is very high tech, in fact they have some of the most advanced land navigation and machinery there is!

Also your argument is based on harvesting of a product, only one aspect of farming, that is manly produced in third world countries.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#128

Post by gammarator »

walshemj wrote: post #20
logn wrote: post #2

This article presents a nuanced point, and I agree with it. My response to this quote by Steve Burgess (not the author): "Why are programmers granted such high status and wealth in our society for living in a self-created self-indulgant intellectual world of constant escapism- and yet farmers are regarded with such distain when they operate on the most important boundary between society and the biosphere?" ... would…

Given the amount of government subvention and subsidies compered to Farmers we are very very low down on the totem pole. In the EU in 20010 €43.8bn (31% of the EU budget) compared to the support that STEM industries get this is far more. Blue states like CA and MA support the smaller interior agricultural red states - the USA is set up to favor farmers. You don't get satire like Farmer Palmer in VIZ from nothimg

California has the most agricultural output of any state in the US, fyi: http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/agricultural-productiv...

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#129

Post by meaty »

aethertap wrote: post #36
gambiting wrote: post #11

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

I run a small farm, and I've been a professional programmer for about 12 years. I agree with what you say - kids should definitely have the opportunity to learn both. Of my two pursuits above, farming is much newer to me and I've found an amazing amount of skill transfer from the world of programming to the world of farming. Granted, my sheep don't understand when I yell at them in haskell, but the approaches to prob…

I don't have a farm but I have a quarter acre of land in london on which I spend a fair amount of time growing vegetables (there are actually 5 of us). We don't have any grass to give you an idea.

The skills are definitely transferrable , particularly time and planning skills. Mathematics and engineering skills are almost vital for success as well.

However the most important things it gives me are peace, tranquility and space to think. I can go for a wander and come back with a fully modelled system and some potatoes :)

All skills gained are valuable in an uncertain future.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#130

Post by meaty »

barry-cotter wrote: post #15
gambiting wrote: post #11

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Look at me exercising a form of conspicuous consumption (the time of a highly educated profeasional) that my class and culture peers think are praiseworthy. Let me say everyone should indulge in my hobby. Let's look down on those who don't together.

Actually some of us do it as a context switch and a tie to our roots.

Some of us, myself included consider it to be a valuable skill in an unstable world and some insurance against the fuckwits we have to trust in society.

Also the stuff tastes better.

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