Teach kids to farm, not code. • Hacker News Board

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#51

Post by gambiting » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:19 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #40

rorrr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic. Philosophy is closer. Computer programming is pretty much pure logic and problem solving. The only better…

If you want to teach logical thinking, you need to teach biases, rationality, probability, etc. Programming is teaching "if this, then that".

What you just said is simply not true. Programming does teach you all 3 things that you mentioned.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#52

Post by coldtea » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:23 PM UTC

patrickaljord wrote: post #47

coldtea wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X indeed revolutionised the world. Y just made porn delivery and commerce better. It's not even clear at this point if it had any effect (besides negative) to the global intellectual climate.

Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? How…

>Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? How about communication? How about almost anything you use today to make your life easier has a computer chip in it?

Making my life slightly easier is not that important -- and hardly what I'd call a world changing event in the scale of agricultural revolution or even the industrial revolution.

I understand that as CS people we like to sing our own praises, but just like once you have electric ovens, getting a microwave is not that big of progress (if it's not a throwback to a worse method of heating), similarly, once you have global trade routes, ships, trains, cars, snail mail, telegraphs and telephones, having computerised version of communication is not that much of a step forward.

The world is not that different, including everyday life, from 40 years ago, when computers were mostly unknown outside of large companies. We just play more videogames, watch more cat videos, and exchange more (than zero) BS instant messages and mails. Quantitative is not qualitative difference.

As for the use of computers in science: again, quantitative is not qualitative difference. The most involved and mind-boggling discoveries were done before computers, from evolution, to relativity, to quantum mechanics, to the DNA. We are now better at number crunching (such as decoding the genome), that doesn't mean we produce science of equal impact.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#53

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:25 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #26

Turing_Machine wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? " Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer really is, and how that differs from the lucky few who get to sell boutique "organic" produce to rich people.

"Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer is" You could say the same about oil rig workers or coal miners and they are going to use both coal and oil when they grow up. Should we teach kids how to do these professions too? Where should we stop? There's many "grim" professions, things that need to be done in life, yet school kids are usually shown none of them. So what?

[deleted]

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#54

Post by curiousdannii » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:30 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #21

gambiting wrote: post #11

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

"Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? " Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer really is, and how that differs from the lucky few who get to sell boutique "organic" produce to rich people.

Subsistence farmers in developing countries often have quite happy lives. I've lived in PNG, and the biggest thing they lack is health care, but that's getting better all the time.

Farmers in developed western countries probably have it worse. Supermarkets have driven prices down to ridiculous levels, so the profit of, for example, dairy farmers is very low. There are reasons the suicide rates in rural areas is high.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#55

Post by StavrosK » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:30 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #51

StavrosK wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to teach logical thinking, you need to teach biases, rationality, probability, etc. Programming is teaching "if this, then that".

What you just said is simply not true. Programming does teach you all 3 things that you mentioned.

How on earth does programming teach you biases?

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#56

Post by patrickaljord » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:31 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #52

patrickaljord wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? How…

> Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? Ho…

You left out making knowledge available to all.

> that doesn't mean we produce science of equal impact

Of course we do, we make amazing science at such a huge rate most people can't even keep up with it anymore. If you believe computing has only little and only "quantitative" impact on science and communication than there is little I can do for you, computing has completely revolutionized every single science field. But sure, keep thinking it's just cat videos and porn. Maybe we should just go farming instead...

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#57

Post by adestefan » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:33 PM UTC

rorrr wrote: post #39

adestefan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why people think programming us the pinnacle of problem solving. Just about any trade involves just as much logical thinking and problem solving.

Really? Any trade? Car salesmen are sitting and solving logical problems? Programming is very close to logic. Of course, there are other fields that require logic and problem solving. Engineering, science, for instance.

I'm talking about what are commonly called the skilled trades [0]. Some of the most analytical thinkers I know were trained in a trade. Masons and cabinet makers that have an intuitive understanding of geometry and trigonometry that most people just don't grasp. I learned most of my problem solving skills from my father who was trained as an industrial electrician. Spend a day on a job site and you'll hear the same things you hear programmers bitching about. Most people complain about the engineers and architects not understanding how the real world works just like programmers always bitch about software architects.

It's a real shame that most people seem to look down on the trades as somehow being inferior to white collar work. This is what Mike Rowe has been preaching about for the past 4 or 5 years. Just listen to his TED talk [1].

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesmen

[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.htm...

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#58

Post by Heliosmaster » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:40 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #11

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

> Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again?

Because people forgot in a hanfdul of years (that's what it is, compared to the span of human history) what was slowly learned over the course of centuries and millennia. And the result? That kids nowadays almost think that foods magically pops out from the shelf at the supermarket.

Specialization (in the sense that nobody does everything, everyone does his small part) is definitely good, unless you forget what everything is about and depend on others too much.

Nobody expect people to go back to farming, but at least to know how is done. You never know.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#59

Post by VexXtreme » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:42 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #52

patrickaljord wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? How…

> Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? Ho…

So you're saying that computers and computer science didn't revolutionize the world? They just made people's lives "slightly easier"?

What about free instant communication with people who live halfway around the world? What about massive knowledge bases like Wikipedia that never existed on this scale in the past? What about search engines that make every piece of knowledge available to humanity instantly available to you? What about having access to all of that in a small device in your pocket?

I really don't know if you're trolling or you're just being obtuse. If the only benefit you've been able to get from all this wonderful technology is watching porn and cat videos, then that says more about you than it does about the technology.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#60

Post by randomdata » Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 1:43 PM UTC

singular wrote: post #7

"This thing #{X} that I am inexperienced at is much harder than this thing #{Y} I spent years doing because I am experienced at #{Y} and have some idea how to do it and thus it feels comfortable. Why, I am going to go so far as to talk down everybody who still does #{Y}, partly because I'm somewhat burnt out on it, and partly because my comparative experience makes me feel like it's easy compared to #{X}." Where:- *…

I've been involved in farming for most of my life and now, as an adult, have my own operation. I also program professionally. With considerable experience in both, I still think farming is the more challenging of the two and believe that farming does require more problem solving over a wide range of disciplines.

When the whole learn to code push came to my attention, I also wondered if farming would be a better option for achieving the claimed goals.