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Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

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Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#441

Post by grandalf »

Mz wrote: post #330
grandalf wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Severe duress often cannot be clearly distinguished from "mental illness" I 100% agree with this in terms of its accuracy in describing the symptoms. And I do not think mental illness should be stigmatized any more than other illnesses should be (which is not at all). The key though is that once mental illness occurs, rationality goes out the window. To a large extent causality goes out the window. You can't persuade…

Among other things, I think you are seriously underestimating the chronic stress that a "prodigy" typically lives with. I walked away from a national merit scholarship and homeschooled my very gifted but also learning disabled sons. Issues like OCD are incredibly common at very high IQs. So are serious social issues. For an introvert, being a social outcast for being too smart may be merely annoying. For an extrovert…

I'd define having an extremely high IQ has having abnormal brain chemistry :) Surely living among people who are cognitively dissimilar would be very stressful, and living in stressful conditions can be bad for a person's mental health (mental health viewed as something that is fluid and that can change over time and in response to environmental changes).

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#442

Post by djt »

davorak wrote: post #385
djt wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be honest, I thought the same thing as Ed originally. It's a tragic story and I'm sure there is much to learn but let the family grieve rather than make click bait and throw people to the wolves ( ironically what this article is commenting on)

How should people who though like you and ed act differently now? Aaron did not receive enough help on his defense bills. This likely part of the reason he is now dead, but only part of it. Given this how should actions change, if at all? If you think the world would be better if people that held similar opinions to you ed's were slightly different, how should they be different and what argument would have moved you…

If his opinions have changed then he is free to express that. People say and do things relying on the information they have at that time. I didn't write anything because it was just a gut thought, which is why I didn't donate.

I'm sure that if Aaron had told his side of the story then it would have hurt him in court, but it may have garnered him public interest and funds.

For his immense abilities, Aaron made a lot of enemies due to his confrontational behaviour. This seems to be getting glossed over at the moment and having a close network of people may have been able to save him.

Definitely part of the reason, but he also had massive depression issues and talked and wrote about suicide long before.

I had an opinion but didn't take action because it was negative and of no use. I had no idea about him other than he was a Reddit co-founder that I hadn't heard of before, that he made a bit of money, that he had broken the law and that someone was asking for money for his defense.

I don't think the world is a better place for having held those views, it is what it is.

I would say what would have changed my mind was either Aaron or his friends arguing his case in public. All the people he worked with are now vocal about how great he is, but where were they back then?

For one example: Reddit could have created a funding drive but didn't as far as I can tell. Do I blame them? No.

At the end of the day it is really sad. Nothing will change that.

Witch hunts only create a quick fix to our need to rationalise our anger and pain. Ed wrote a criticism that could equally have been written by Aaron, I'm sure the regret he feels now is far worse than anything you can say.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#443

Post by mkr-hn »

roguecoder wrote: post #428
edw519 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

We are not "family". We are the people who called him Paris Hilton and told him to man up. We are the people who consistently criticized him just because he was well known. We told him to shut up about ethics and get back to coding. We told him he wasn't any good at coding, either. We didn't treat him as badly as we could have, as we've treated some other people, but I think trying to recast ourselves as "family" is…

Never quit being this person.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#444

Post by djt »

salemh wrote: post #426
davorak wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How should people who though like you and ed act differently now? Aaron did not receive enough help on his defense bills. This likely part of the reason he is now dead, but only part of it. Given this how should actions change, if at all? If you think the world would be better if people that held similar opinions to you ed's were slightly different, how should they be different and what argument would have moved you…

Remembering the earlier thread through the fog of memory, I assumed he had the funds to pay it himself, and that was cause of much derision, ala "why is he asking for help? He's rich!" and things of that nature.

yeah that was my thought.

Its hard because it is very difficult for our brains to realise the concept that Reddit was profitable but no-where near as profitable as companies that we've never heard about.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#445

Post by MrScruff »

niggler wrote: post #433
MrScruff wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say shame on all the people creating throwaway accounts to sling mud around. 'Let's take a step back.' Techcrunch publish an article singling out a single negative post (among many more) on HN from 120 days ago, and suddenly the pitchfork brigade are screaming for an apology within the hour. No need to worry about the bullying prosecutor any more officer, we've found the man! Because clearly none of these people ha…

"Techcrunch publish an article singling out a single negative post (among many more) on HN from 120 days ago" Looking at the post, it would seem that edw's opinion was the most popular in the hivemind (judging by the upvotes on his comment), so it's fair to single out that post which summarized the thoughts of the many people upvoting. Unless people just arbitrarily upvoted him, which would have other ramifications .…

It's not fair to single out one individual, particularly when the not so subtle (and completely speculative) inference is that the discussion led to Swartz's suicide.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#446

Post by MichaelApproved »

jacquesm wrote: post #381
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't _show_ the same thing as the post. * We can't see votes so to make ascent of an opinion visible adding a "me too" is actually different to an upvote. * We can't see who has upvoted. * The commenters standing - recognised by name, work and reputation by many here I'd warrant - makes a difference too IMO. Whilst "me too" comments get annoying they carry info here that is otherwise not available.

I figured the fact that Thomas and I are usually found on opposite sides of any argument and that we agree on this one might carry some weight.

Yes, if "me too" posts are only added in rare cases by accounts which have a lot of influence, such as yours, it would follow the point you're both making but that's not the case. You post a "me too" and it sets an example for others to follow. Case in point https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5056927

Further more, "to make ascent of an opinion visible" isn't necessary because an ascent is visible by it's very nature. The best posts rise to the top. Up-vote a post and it'll make it's ascent.

This isn't meant to be a heavy nitpicking argument. Please take it as a lighthearted discussion.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#447

Post by pygy_ »

Permit wrote: post #335
pygy_ wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Push anyone far enough and they'll take their own life. The threshold varies from one person to the next, but blaming his suicide on mental illness is IMO disingenuous. Which causes deserve funding is a matter of personal choice.

>Push anyone far enough and they'll take their own life. This is ridiculous hindsight bias, people have been charged with far more than Aaron and didn't kill themselves. Aaron had been depressed for a long time leading up to all of this, yet everyone seems to argue that the prosecution is what did it and he would have been completely fine otherwise. They have nothing to base that off of, but that's still the case tha…

Ridiculous? Eat it!

Hindsight bias, not really either, a plain old fact. Some people are more resistant than others, but at some point anyone will snap (for the toughest it may require severe sleep deprivation and torture, but most people have a much lower threshold).

I didn't know Aaron Swartz, and I am thus not familiar with the details of his alleged depressive past.

There are usually a lot of factors that bring people to kill themselves. Assuming he was indeed depressed, the intensity of the symptoms get modulated by external influences. The absolute weight of the charges is also completely meaningless. They were intentionally unfair, and the meaning of a given sentence varies from people to people.

Blaming depression for his suicide on depression alone simply shows you don't know what you're talking about (FWIW I hold a MD).

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#448

Post by MrScruff »

sethbc wrote: post #399
edw519 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

I never post and I never comment, but I had to login to say something. HN needs to "man up" and accept that the majority of the attitudes in the original post are exactly why things ended the way they did. People bitching about the styling of payment buttons? Telling someone to "man up" or exclaiming (with plenty of IANAL disclaimers) that no one would get jail time for something like this is typical for your average…

HN needs to "man up" and accept that the majority of the attitudes in the original post are exactly why things ended the way they did.

What exactly do you mean by this?

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#449

Post by caf »

richardlblair wrote: post #373
Mz wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a genetic disorder. At the time I attempted suicide, I was undiagnosed. In part for that reason, I ended up with severe low blood sugar while also under severe social duress. The short version is that relatives who knew the man I was arguing with had molested me as a child were telling me to "behave" instead of telling him to stfu. The severe low blood sugar interfered with my plans to slash my wrists. Had I b…

I'm really sorry to hear about your struggles, and I sincerely hope you are doing better now. I did want to mention that the new DSM (and even the current one) does cover situations such as yours. I understand the reluctance to call duress (whether that be social, emotional, etc) "mental illness" and surely an argument can be made that it is not, however in some ways it is. I think the real point here is that there a…

If being susceptible to social pressure / duress is a mental illness, then we are almost all mentally ill.

Which makes it a useless definition, in my book.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#450

Post by jacquesm »

ameen wrote: post #291
angrycoder wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest appraisal? That is one way of looking at it. Another way is he threw out a giant derogatory 'Meh' to someone asking for help. Does he bear responsibility for what happened to Aaron? No, but it is also not hard to see how the top ranked comment from a respected member didn't carry some weight in how people perceived Aaron and his situation. The big take away here is that words matter and maybe if you don't h…

This reminds me of a relevant quote, and its relevance increases as you dissect it. “Four things come back not: the spoken word; the sped arrow; time past; the neglected opportunity.” - Umar ibn al-Khattab, Caliph (AD 592-644)

That's an awful lot of wisdom to pack into fewer than 20 words. Thank you for that.
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