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Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

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Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#321

Post by chernevik »

NZ_Matt wrote: post #46
jacquesm wrote: post #18

Here is the HN thread from back then. Some of it makes for pretty uncomfortable reading right now. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4529484

God dam I hate the term "man up", it really is a hugely degrading phrase. If someone is having a hard time and asks for the help the worst thing you can do is tell them to "man up" or "get over it".

I don't see how anyone can read that phrase in that thread as referring to Aaron's _depression_. It was entirely in the context of taking responsibility for his _activism_, and under a presumption that he had considerable resources.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#322

Post by RegEx »

cstejerean wrote: post #229
RegEx wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What information? I'd legitimately appreciate links/sources of the situation's severity other than hindsight.

It didn't help that the people trying to shed light on the severity of the situation were met with comments like http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4529716

That comment was in reply to

> If the feds get their way you'll know exactly where to find him for the next 35 years.

I'm asking if people actually knew facts, not some tin-foil hat speculation (even if the tin-foil hat was right on the money).

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#323

Post by irollboozers »

jacquesm wrote: post #194
geoka9 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we please stop the mobbing? Thanks. Can we just say it's a good a lesson to us all? I understand what the OP must be going through now; it'd make anybody feel miserable.

> Can we just say it's a good a lesson to us all? I'm pretty sure that it is.

How do we make sure we remember all the lessons in this? Are these just growing pains of the internet as a whole, or are we fated to relapse the next time it happens again?

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#324

Post by btilly »

tptacek wrote: post #68
danem wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the contrast? edw519's past remarks remain consistent with the one you've linked to in your comment. Expressing the idea that Aaron should be expected take responsibility for his actions does not imply any ill will on edw519's part. Why does this issue have to be made into something so polarizing? With many here, it's either you believe Aaron should've been able to walk away scot-free, or you support an oppr…

Does anyone here who has paid any attention to Ed whatsoever believe he would have written that comment had he known that Aaron had already been financially ruined by an overzealous prosecution that had confronted him with a dilemma of pleading guilty to 13 felonies and spending 6 months in prison or taking a crap-shot at 6-7 years in prison? NOBODY KNEW THESE DETAILS AT THE TIME. Aaron was apparently prevented from…

The most important lesson that I have learned from this whole incident is that defending yourself from a federal lawsuit AVERAGES $1.5 million.

I had no idea it was that high. I think few of us did.

If I had seen that conversation (I missed it) and known that fact back then (I didn't), I'd have definitely corrected Ed at that point.

Also shocking is that the purported punishment is so far out of line with what people have gotten in the past. Based on previous examples like Robert Morris (accidentally shut down most of the Internet) and Randal Schwartz (cracked passwords for many accounts at Intel - yes I'm aware of the extenuating circumstances) I would not have expected any jail time to be involved for this "crime".

That shocking discrepancy is why I was so fast to sign the petition to fire this particular prosecutor.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#326

Post by dennisgorelik »

Dn_Ab wrote: post #198
[deleted] wrote: post #104

[deleted]

In a comment below you state NOBODY KNEW THESE DETAILS AT THE TIME That is exactly why judgement should have been deferred. In the face of uncertainty, given the situation, withholding comment or querying neutrally would have been optimal. That is clear with foresight, not just obvious from hindsight. I did not see that thread the first time but it is the tone and not the words that would be so damaging. Man up . Ver…

I see you are suggesting us stop sharing with each other what we think.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#327

Post by illuminate »

nostrademons wrote: post #237
derleth wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a woman. I go around telling women to "woman up". Well, the difference between "woman up" and "man up" is that, for men, showing emotion is a sign of weakness, so "man up" means "don't show emotion". That's a very dangerous thing to tell people who have serious emotional problems.

It's not, though. There's a perception that showing emotion is a sign of weakness for men. However, think about how you actually react to men who show emotion. How did you react to Lessig's or Doctorow's posts about Aaron, with all their emotion? Did you think them less of a man for it? I think there is a strong taboo against men appearing out of control of themselves or their situation. But that's not really gendere…

"There's a perception that showing emotion is a sign of weakness for men."

Which is why berating someone with gendered terms is pretty futile, it encourages people to clam up and compartmentalize unhealthily.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#328

Post by JasonFruit »

encoderer wrote: post #195
angrycoder wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest appraisal? That is one way of looking at it. Another way is he threw out a giant derogatory 'Meh' to someone asking for help. Does he bear responsibility for what happened to Aaron? No, but it is also not hard to see how the top ranked comment from a respected member didn't carry some weight in how people perceived Aaron and his situation. The big take away here is that words matter and maybe if you don't h…

I up-voted his original comment I would do so again. Aaron knew what he was doing. There are many charities more deserving than his legal defense fund -- that isn't changed just because he was apparently mentally ill enough to take his own life. There should be a high burden you have to overcome to successfully find crowd-funding for anything including a legal defense.

Exactly. While he may have been being put under undue pressure, I disagreed with his actions, his reasoning, and his approach, and so I didn't think his legal defense was worth my money. That doesn't mean I don't regret his death, but his death wouldn't change my action in an analogous situation tomorrow.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#329

Post by spinlocked »

edw519 wrote: post #260
[deleted] wrote: post #104

[deleted]

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

We are all partially responsible in a small way. We did not take a stand when that link was posted. Each one of us who did not donate or pass that link around.

Maybe we were swayed by the comments, maybe not. Call ourselves hackers, get influenced by some prick who sounds like an uppity high school headmaster. Think we're principled, refuse to take a stand for what's right.

At the very least, we can learn. To take a stand in what we believe in. Without getting swayed by the fakers.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#330

Post by Mz »

grandalf wrote: post #319
Mz wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a genetic disorder. At the time I attempted suicide, I was undiagnosed. In part for that reason, I ended up with severe low blood sugar while also under severe social duress. The short version is that relatives who knew the man I was arguing with had molested me as a child were telling me to "behave" instead of telling him to stfu. The severe low blood sugar interfered with my plans to slash my wrists. Had I b…

Severe duress often cannot be clearly distinguished from "mental illness" I 100% agree with this in terms of its accuracy in describing the symptoms. And I do not think mental illness should be stigmatized any more than other illnesses should be (which is not at all). The key though is that once mental illness occurs, rationality goes out the window. To a large extent causality goes out the window. You can't persuade…

Among other things, I think you are seriously underestimating the chronic stress that a "prodigy" typically lives with. I walked away from a national merit scholarship and homeschooled my very gifted but also learning disabled sons. Issues like OCD are incredibly common at very high IQs. So are serious social issues. For an introvert, being a social outcast for being too smart may be merely annoying. For an extrovert, it may amount to torture. I think it unlikely you can convince me personally that his depression was entirely due to wonky brain chemistry. What little I know about his life suggests huge confounding factors, well before he was charged with a crime.

Peace. And have an upvote.

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