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The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

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Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#131

Post by gutnor »

gadders wrote: post #125
gutnor wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"immorality " That is a strange moral system you have in the US. In other countries, it is morally acceptable to take from the rich and redistribute to the poor. The reason is that in those countries, wealth and lack of wealth is thought to be a great part influenced by factor outside your control (chance). That is even backed by studies, if you are born in a poor families, you will have less opportunities than a ric…

How is it moral to take somebody else's propety?

Because that somebody else has agreed ?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#132

Post by pyre »

roel_v wrote: post #112
rdtsc wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a rational point of view I can understand how someone with a high income is against a progressive tax structure. How someone how has millions of dollars stashed in an account votes against a socialized basic care. I don't understand why someone living on government's check, and having poor health due to a financial inability to go the doctor, is voting against it. That is the issue. The problem I am describing i…

"I don't understand why someone living on government's check, and having poor health due to a financial inability to go the doctor, is voting against it." Because maybe these people actually see the immorality of taking from others by force? "The problem I am describing is people being manipulated to vote against their own interest." So morality has no bearing on your position? "Fuck morality and others, as long as I…

  | Because maybe these people actually see the
  | immorality of taking from others by force?
Based on this statement, the only form of taxes that you approve of is a 'pay whatever you want' system, right? Otherwise, all taxes is immoral, or at least any tax that is imposed on at least 1 person that feels it is too high.

  | So morality has no bearing on your position?
One of the things being described is the people that hold positions like, "Don't you dare touch my socialist programs (Social Security, Medicare, etc), but vote against Obama because he's a socialist and socialism is evil... the Bible says so!"

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#134

Post by rayiner »

maratd wrote: post #60
rayiner wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, a reactionary living in 19th century might have said "because democracy works so much better right? People are so envious of the great freedom people in France are enjoying." With the memory of the French Revolution fresh in their mind, they probably would have been reasonable to say so.

Liberal western-style democracy with open markets has certainly seen its failures. And it has also seen its successes. Pray tell, what successes has communism and radical socialism achieved?

My point is that if you sat there in 1800 and looked at the track record of democratic/republican revolutions at that time, you'd come to a different conclusion than if you did so in 2012.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#135

Post by gutnor »

gadders wrote: post #133
gutnor wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that somebody else has agreed ?

So taxes are voluntary? Awesome.

Indeed, US/EU allows you to voluntarily pay taxes above the legal minimum corresponding to your situation. I'm happy you find that awesome.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#137

Post by tsotha »

lostlogin wrote: post #110
frogpelt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be impoverished people. Capitalism provides the best opportunity to choose not to be.

Is it possible to travel and believe this 100%? Capitalism might be the best option but I'm not that confident after seeing the so-called progress it has inflicted on a lot of places. I don't know what a better option is, but I the warts of capitalism sure are ugly.

>Capitalism might be the best option but I'm not that confident after seeing the so-called progress it has inflicted on a lot of places.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "so-called progress".

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#138

Post by tsotha »

rdtsc wrote: post #52

> The expectation of rising real incomes was built into the American culture Ah that's the classic propaganda line: "I am not poor, I am just pre-wealthy." ...So I sure don't want to vote for anything that would jeopardize my wealthy position when I get there. The key in all of this is ability to manipulate the people into believing and voting in a particular way. US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on thei…

>I am not poor, I am just pre-wealthy.

Whose propaganda line? I've never heard anyone in favor of small government say that. There aren't people in the electorate who think they're going to wind up wealthy to swing an election.

The lack of increasing real incomes doesn't have anything to do with "tax cuts for the super rich". It's the combination of globalization and the importation of ten million poor people. If you're doing a job that can be taught to a Central or South American peasant in a few weeks you simply have no power in the labor market.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#139

Post by maratd »

rdtsc wrote: post #93
maratd wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on their won. A human being is at the most juvenile when he encounters a view contrary to his own and ascribes it to stupidity. If only everyone was as enlightened, as educated, as brilliant as he ... then everyone would understand. No. Grow up. I will never be wealthy and I will still continue to vote for a fair tax system. A flat tax system. Because everyone should pa…

> I will never be wealthy and I will still continue to vote for a fair tax system. What makes you think that's fair? I didn't say what is fair or not, you brought that into the discussion. Do you think marginal utility doesn't make sense. Why is linear, percentage based, tax "fair"? Seems rather arbitrary to me. > I won't always be healthy and I will still continue to vote against a socialist healthcare system. Becau…

> ... their health into a marketable commodity is craziness

> ... fuel the military industrial complex, is craziness.

> ... old people die of hunger and neglect is craziness.

> ... your beliefs are crazy

> ... and I say that's crazy as well

When you develop the maturity to actually consider another human being's view point and respond in an intelligent manner, I'll be happy to respond in kind.

Let's try a random example.

> Letting emergency services handle terminal heart patients, which would have been managed better by preventive care is insanity.

I see where you're coming from. You no doubt feel that by reducing the costs to preventative care through government subsidy, we could create a reality where the overwhelming majority of the population would be actively screened for heart disease and treat it as soon as detected, reducing overall costs.

You're wrong. Even the poorest of the poor can afford to see a physician once a year to get screened. Even if they paid out of pocket. The kind of tests you're talking about cost less than a hundred dollars.

So why don't they? They choose not to. Maybe they despise doctors, maybe it reminds them of their own mortality, maybe they feel like it could never happen to them, but they do make that choice. And it's not because of cost.

See how that works? I made an effort to understand why you said what you did, I thought about it, and then I responded without calling any of your ideas crazy, insane, ignorant, or stupid.

Now you try.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#140

Post by mchannon »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #78
mchannon wrote: post #46

I'm confused about the perceived dichotomy of taxation and private investment. If the government threatens to take their cash, wealthy individuals and entities will find ways to use that cash to further their wealth instead of giving it to the government. So if the government's taxes are too high, the wealthy won't have the money to invest, but if the taxes are too low, the wealthy have a no-risk, stable return on th…

The idea has possible merit, but I want to complain about how you're getting to it. For one thing, the implication that inflation is politically easy is probably not true. There is a large contingent of the right (e.g. the Ron Paul crowd) who are always running around talking about auditing the Fed and how fiat money is ruining everything, etc. More strategically, the people who have the greatest incentive to fight i…

I think we're grokking the same here, but one disconnect:

You're presupposing that the wealthy want _some_ return on their wealth, and I think that in many cases, that simply isn't true.

Take a look at all of the money stranded offshore that corporate America is waiting on Uncle Sam to allow into the US without taxing- that money is probably not earning much if anything; think of the tinpot dictator or the kleptocrat who squirreled away a nest egg in a Swiss or Cayman bank account, and think of the smuggling kingpin south of the border with a swimming pool full of cash.

They all share the following in common- highly liquid and inefficiently invested wealth. They have little hope of increasing the value of this wealth by investing it or consuming with it because to do so requires a big hit to its dollar value (taxation or risk of seizure). The best return (for them) is to let it slowly (in our case very slowly) inflate until a rainy day comes.

The only practical and sure-fire way to bring that money back to productive use is to redistribute it via inflation.

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