Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

stratfor.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 151 posts

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#51

Post by acabal »

martinced wrote: post #28
seiji wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please keep writing more around here. We need people like you and comments like this.

No we don't. These are poisonous words made by people dreaming of a world made of slaves. Dreaming of a world where the word "freedom" would be forbidden. The last thing we need now in a time of crisis is socialists or communists trying to push their agenda.

He didn't say "Communism is great, let's all hold hands and dance in a circle around a big red star"; he said, "Marx claims capitalism and other systems have some flaws." There's a big difference between the two statements.

Your knee-jerk reactionism betrays you. Marx is capable of having some good--or at the very least, thought-worthy--points amid an ultimately flawed solution (communism). For you to dismiss a point by painting it with a "red menace" ad-hominem (not your words, but certainly their spirit) is, too, dangerous thinking--or perhaps lack of thinking.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#52

Post by rdtsc »

> The expectation of rising real incomes was built into the American culture

Ah that's the classic propaganda line:

    "I am not poor, I am just pre-wealthy."
...So I sure don't want to vote for anything that would jeopardize my wealthy position when I get there.

The key in all of this is ability to manipulate the people into believing and voting in a particular way. US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on their won. Blame the education system, blame the system as a whole, I don' t know. As long as people don't base their votes on reality they will end up voting against their own good because they are being manipulated.

Basic health care, tax cuts for the super rich, trickle down wealth, futile wars, all this things are being delegated (via votes) from un-informed people to the politicians via a manipulative process. I see this within my own extended family, I see it on the streets, in the stores, in school and at work.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#53

Post by scarmig »

jeffdavis wrote: post #50

I would be interested to see more statistics and trends of people over time. Many of the statistics I see divide people into classes by income, but ignore the fact that the people within those classes change. For instance, let's say that people in the next generation decide to go to college for 10 more years, leaving at 32 rather than 22. Then, when they get out, they make 50% more income than the previous generation…

You see that same issue when people complain that X% of the population doesn't pay income taxes: it's true, as far as it goes, but it ignores that people nowadays have extended periods of studenthood, sabbaticals, and partial retirement (among other things). The daughter of two professors working on a PhD in mathematics is not of a lower class than a high school educated waitress, despite making a similar amount.

I dug up this paper, which seems like it might address it. Going to dig into it sometime after work: http://economics.sas.upenn.edu/~manovski/papers/accounting_f...

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#54

Post by ilaksh »

Great points in this article and I agree with just about everything.

But I think that to really understand the problem you have to look at things from a wider and more fundamental perspective.

First of all, the United States and what is happening to it does not exist in a vacuum. The US is part of a global system which has a lot of integration.

We need to look at actual human needs and real resource distribution on a global basis to understand the problem and come up with a solution.

We need to tie our financial and business calculations into human and environmental needs in a direct way rather than relying on indirect regulation by government. We also need to come up with a system that factors in massive technological unemployment, including large sectors of the professional workforce.

I think there are probably several different approaches that will work, but you have to get away from the typical 'economic' arguments and go at things from a more fundamental level. I believe the key is to find ways to ensure the application and distribution of technologies that meet human needs. We may need some new types of institutions.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#55

Post by cantankerous »

kamaal wrote: post #47
anigbrowl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically workers create $240 of wealth every eight hour work day, but are only paid $200 a day. But workers don't create that much wealth in a day by themselves; they need plant and material to create the product or service that is sold. The buildings they work in, the machinery that they use, the raw material they consume, are equally important inputs to production and it is these which are supplied by the capitali…

I think Marx went into over simplification when it came to issues like these. Even in this case, and in most cases. The workers are actually are super fortunate to even have and opportunity to make $200 without taking any risks at all. Everything is built ready, all the investments and risks are born by somebody else. All you do is work(Im not saying that's easy or insignificant, but it is individually insignificant…

Marx was concerned with the differences between an agrarian society moving to an industiralized society and the implications it had for the control of wealth and power. Prior to industrialization, at least in the mind of Marx, individuals were able to effectively reap what they sowed on a farm somewhere (also an oversimplification, but still). In an industrialized era, one man at the time could not compete on his own for lacking capital, an education, and connections (put Marx into the context of his time and geopolitical background). Marx wasn't overly concerned with the issue of compensation of a capitalist being commiserate with the risk s/he takes, but rather the protection of individuals who now live in a world where they are, more likely than not, stuck working for somebody else.

While I don't really know about the particulars of his proposed solutions, I think Marx does identify a real problem that free-markets on their own do not guarantee solutions to.

It's never a bad idea to be on the look out to make sure our economy is working to serve everybody involved in it, at least in my opinion. That's my biggest takeaway from Marx.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#56

Post by pdonis »

chii wrote: post #40
pdonis wrote: post #16

One thing I don't see addressed here (or in other articles linked to in this thread): corporate governance. Abusing the standard corporate governance model, where shareholders delegate to a Board of Directors, is one of the key ways that rich people game the system.

can you explain a bit more about this? i dont understand how delegating to a board is an exploit.

Delegating in itself isn't, but it opens up a security hole as soon as corporate executives realize they can game the system by becoming board members--both in their own companies and in each other's companies. If you look at most corporate boards today, they are composed of executives of other companies, and their main function is to allow said executives to rubber-stamp each other's golden parachutes.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#57

Post by bhntr3 »

awakeasleep wrote: post #13

This sure fits an interesting middle ground sort of journalism. I don't think I'm quite qualified to describe it, anyone up to help? For one, it tackles the same insecurity subject conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones approach. However, he keeps it in the realm of rationality. What is the "It"? The main subject seems to be a description of the position and orientation of classes in USA society, and how they're changi…

There's a series of articles about the American middle class with infographics and video here:

http://www.globalpost.com/america-the-gutted-globalpost

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#58

Post by acabal »

rdtsc wrote: post #52

> The expectation of rising real incomes was built into the American culture Ah that's the classic propaganda line: "I am not poor, I am just pre-wealthy." ...So I sure don't want to vote for anything that would jeopardize my wealthy position when I get there. The key in all of this is ability to manipulate the people into believing and voting in a particular way. US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on thei…

I've said for a long time the basic problem in the States isn't capitalism vs. socialism or rich vs. poor, but rather educated vs. uneducated. I think I'm not being out of line to claim that on the average an American's high-school-level education is pretty poor. People who are victims of poor education don't know history (which is rich in examples of past policy), can't think critically or reason about potential outcomes, and don't know to sometimes be healthily skeptical of things they're told.

Those kinds of people will never be able to vote in their best interests because they have no idea what their interests even are, because they're easily manipulated, and because they're incapable of reasoning critically about even the most basic policy decisions. That's how you wind up with people holding up picket signs saying "Obama=socialism" on one side and "Keep your hands off my Medicare" on the other.

The problem is basic education.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#59

Post by rdtsc »

CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

That is all well and good. But is there a real world example of an economic and social system that works that is not based on capitalism? And by works here I don't mean just GDP, maybe also life expectancy, crime, health stats, education level, general happiness if available.

Basically if I get a free pass and resource to move anywhere, I where do I go find this "better" place that moved beyond Capitalism and is free of these contradictions.

I hear North European countries are a pretty good place to be? I've never been there. What makes that better and how far are they both from the current Capitalist system that US has and also how far are they from Marx's ideal?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#60

Post by maratd »

rayiner wrote: post #29
martinced wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because socialism or communism works so much better right? People are especially envious of the great freedom people in North Korea are enjoying? Same as Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? (wanna change your currency to another one in Argentina to hedge yourself against a very strong inflation? you can't, because the socialist state won't let you do that) What's next after Karl Marx? That the homophobic racist murderer that…

You know, a reactionary living in 19th century might have said "because democracy works so much better right? People are so envious of the great freedom people in France are enjoying." With the memory of the French Revolution fresh in their mind, they probably would have been reasonable to say so.

Liberal western-style democracy with open markets has certainly seen its failures. And it has also seen its successes.

Pray tell, what successes has communism and radical socialism achieved?

Post reply on HN