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Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

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Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#81

Post by anewguy99 »

tomwalker wrote: post #11

" I didn’t create Cryptoparty just so a bunch of privileged white boys could.." Why did she drag race into it? Completely unnecessary. She has valid points without this.

This isn't the first time that I've seen anti-white racism on Hacker News[1]. The emotion behind theories of class privilege gets separated from its intellectual content, and people think it is okay to say things like this to their fellow hackers. It isn't.

[1] For example, a previous comment thread blamed Elon Musk's success on the fact that he is a white male (as if every white male were a billionaire). I didn't comment at the time because I was logged-in to my main account, and defending white people against racism is un-PC. But I do worry that this kind of attack is accepted here and goes uncommented.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#82

Post by lukev »

etherael wrote: post #67
lukev wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just proved her point - your tone is itself evidence that sexism is a problem on sites like HN. By using the phrase "big bad men" you are engaging in precisely the sort of gender-oriented down-talking that she is complaining about. You are not just criticizing her, you are implying that she's an emotional woman who can't play with the big boys. I don't know anything about the author, but just reading her…

How can you be so certain that her interpretation, or your interpretation, of what is happening is actually in line with reality? One cannot simply observe something and immediately react emotionally and simultaneously imagine that they've just completely nailed the core of the issue with complete accuracy and no misunderstanding has taken place whatsoever. From my subjective perspective for example the OP you're res…

Of course we can't know the true motivation of any of the parties involved.

But as big a problem as this has obviously become, I'd rather err on the side of calling out apparent sexism when I see it rather than giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and giving sexists the impression that this shit is ok.

And if I'm wrong, oh well. Worst case, some people might stop to think about the language they use and how it affects others.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#83

Post by mburshteyn »

zeidrich wrote: post #72

To be fair to the author, she doesn't claim that everything is a result of sexism. The down-right douchebaggery is more apt a description for the majority of it, but there's no question that sex factors into big parts of it. There's a lot of egos in these communities, there are a lot of young people with adolescent hormones and something to prove. The communities themselves are pretty insular, and distinguish themsel…

There is a whole lot of derailing going on here.

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/complete.html

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#84

Post by mburshteyn »

boboblong wrote: post #80
mburshteyn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be interested in reading this: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/complete.html#proveit .

I just glanced at several of the headings, and it looks like that page is just a list of reasonable things to say.

That's the point.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#85

Post by boboblong »

lukev wrote: post #48
timmm wrote: post #8

They (big bad men) gave you trouble for seemingly valid difference in opinions, deal with it. And please don't imply that the HN has any hand in fostering misogyny or sexism because it's a completely false characterization of the community at large. In fact if you haven't picked up on it yet we're actually one of the more "progressive" and or liberal industries. But that doesn't mean we're going to hold you to any le…

I think you just proved her point - your tone is itself evidence that sexism is a problem on sites like HN. By using the phrase "big bad men" you are engaging in precisely the sort of gender-oriented down-talking that she is complaining about. You are not just criticizing her, you are implying that she's an emotional woman who can't play with the big boys. I don't know anything about the author, but just reading her…

>By using the phrase "big bad men" you are engaging in precisely the sort of gender-oriented down-talking that she is complaining about.

But that's absurd. He only used that phrase in response to a claim that men in tech are incorrigibly sexist and hostile.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#86

Post by lukev »

w1ntermute wrote: post #66
lukev wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hacker, you should know that even a "small" statistical bias (10%-20%) can invalidate experimental results, or contribute to large problems in a complex system. So why is a small but real bias against women in tech still not a huge problem?

> why is a small but real bias against women in tech still not a huge problem? Did you actually bother to read my post before hitting "reply"? > sexism is clearly an issue in the hacker community that needs to be tackled

And I apologize if you really do see this as an issue that needs to be tackled, and if you do something about it whenever you are in a context to do so.

But to often I see this same response to allegations of sexism online - admitting that it's a problem in the general case while undermining the woman's argument in the particulars. You could even possibly be right in this case, but by taking the approach of poking holes in women's complaints, you're undermining their point in general.

Worse, it strays dangerously near "blame the victim" mentality... "if only she hadn't been so inexperienced/emotional/womanly". Regardless of the truth of it, it's actively harmful to genuinely addressing the problem.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#88

Post by boboblong »

sedev wrote: post #23
tomwalker wrote: post #11

" I didn’t create Cryptoparty just so a bunch of privileged white boys could.." Why did she drag race into it? Completely unnecessary. She has valid points without this.

Her agenda is about making crypto accessible to lots of people that it's not currently available to. To those people, hackerdom often looks like an undifferentiated mass of white dudes. Leaving race out of a discussion like that is not a neutral thing: omitting race is a statement of its own.

Are you saying that crpyto is not available to people who aren't white guys?

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#89

Post by anewguy99 »

thejsjunky wrote: post #59
tomwalker wrote: post #11

" I didn’t create Cryptoparty just so a bunch of privileged white boys could.." Why did she drag race into it? Completely unnecessary. She has valid points without this.

It's inherent to the concept of "privilege"; the understanding is that the people with the most "privilege" in the western world are men who are white. If you are making a point that a group has "privilege", it makes sense to point out they are mostly white since it affects the amount of "privilege" they have. That said, that particular remark seems to be imbued with some bitterness and desire to wound; which may be…

I've always found concepts of privilege to be lacking explanatory power. A European-derived culture is dominant in America, but east-Asian Americans still manage to do better than whites in education and in earnings. If racial privilege is powerful, it is not all-powerful.

At the same time, I find the focus on race and class privilege to be incomplete. A poor white boy growing up in Appalachia has less privilege than a member of any race or gender growing up in a California suburb. But if he manages to get to college (statistically unlikely), he will learn from his professors how his success is all because of his skin and his genitals.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#90

Post by boboblong »

Maxious wrote: post #39
sublimit wrote: post #19

Moral of the story: focus on the damn hacking and stay on your computer, at least until you've achieved something worth having a conference speech or "Cryptoparty" about. The thing about the hacker community is that people won't like you if you draw unwarranted attention to yourself. Hoping that people would accept her, the author just keeps on hitting herself with "creeper cards" and social media outbursts that draw…

> Moral of the story: focus on the damn hacking and stay on your computer Focus on the damn cooking and stay in the kitchen?

Uh...no?
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