Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#61

Post by apeace » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:26 AM UTC

In one paragraph, the OP implies that some in the hacker community have "no will to fight harassment, discrimination and douchebaggery"

In the next, she describes "a bunch of privileged white boys" who seem to anger her.

Why, then, is she surprised to be called a "mommy-type" when others are angry at her?

My point being, people sometimes use mean words when they are angry. The best way to "fight harassment, discrimination and douchebaggery" is not to use that type of language when angry, or at all. The OP should consider her own message.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#62

Post by Alex3917 » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:28 AM UTC

kabuks wrote: post #41

learn wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was horrible to read.

What do you mean? Writing style? It's my run on sentences isn't it.

I think this piece would have been stronger if it were just 3 - 5 examples and then discussion. If the piece is going to be billed as a call for discussion about sexism, then the piece should be mostly about sexism rather than about things not related to sexism that went wrong with the project.

Also, for what it's worth most of the questionable behavior I see comes from the developers who are part of open source culture rather than from the ones who are part of startup culture. Not sure if others agree or disagree.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#63

Post by kybernetyk » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:29 AM UTC

jjjeffrey wrote: post #53

This article is exceptionally difficult to read because of the low contrast between text and background color and because Firefox won't allow me to highlight the text for some reason.

The highlight color is just a nuance darker than the background - almost not noticeable.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#64

Post by acgourley » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:30 AM UTC

rachelbythebay wrote: post #50

cooldeal wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's just one way sexism rears its ugly head at times in my experience Sorry but what in your story shows that it's sexism? It could easily have happened to a guy or been done by a lady security expert and is more a symptom of a superiority complex.

I'm mostly talking about the situation of reacting to the "wrapping" and missing the content entirely. The fact it comes from person X instead of person Y, and person X is not like person Y. When you see it enough times, you start hypothesizing about why it happens. Then you share notes with others in your situation and your hypothesis gets stronger. ... then you post about it to HN and have a handful of comments ins…

I understand what you're saying, but you may be in the (annoying) position that to back up your argument you'll really have to enumerate all those interactions and show the pattern. Drawing one anecdote without the context is less convincing than: "trust me, I experience sexism in the workplace."

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#65

Post by w1ntermute » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:30 AM UTC

moomin wrote: post #27

w1ntermute wrote: post #5

The problem with this woman's story is that she takes a few cases of explicit sexism and extrapolates them as the reason why everyone is saying rude things to her. Or at least that's how I see it. Perhaps she is just commenting on the general douchebaggery of the community, but even then much of the criticism she received could be seen as fair if she was actually in the wrong. Although sexism is clearly an issue in t…

Yeah, it's all just a few bad apples, there's no underlying problem. Just like all the other women with appalling experiences of sexism in the tech community. Seriously, if you can't see a fundamental problem, I seriously doubt you're looking very hard. http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cerian-jenkins/the-tech-indust... http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk h…

> Seriously, if you can't see a fundamental problem, I seriously doubt you're looking very hard.

If you missed the line where I said that "sexism is clearly an issue in the hacker community that needs to be tackled", then I seriously doubt you read my initial post very carefully.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#66

Post by w1ntermute » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:33 AM UTC

lukev wrote: post #51

w1ntermute wrote: post #5

The problem with this woman's story is that she takes a few cases of explicit sexism and extrapolates them as the reason why everyone is saying rude things to her. Or at least that's how I see it. Perhaps she is just commenting on the general douchebaggery of the community, but even then much of the criticism she received could be seen as fair if she was actually in the wrong. Although sexism is clearly an issue in t…

As a hacker, you should know that even a "small" statistical bias (10%-20%) can invalidate experimental results, or contribute to large problems in a complex system. So why is a small but real bias against women in tech still not a huge problem?

> why is a small but real bias against women in tech still not a huge problem?

Did you actually bother to read my post before hitting "reply"?

> sexism is clearly an issue in the hacker community that needs to be tackled

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#67

Post by etherael » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:34 AM UTC

lukev wrote: post #48

timmm wrote: post #8

They (big bad men) gave you trouble for seemingly valid difference in opinions, deal with it. And please don't imply that the HN has any hand in fostering misogyny or sexism because it's a completely false characterization of the community at large. In fact if you haven't picked up on it yet we're actually one of the more "progressive" and or liberal industries. But that doesn't mean we're going to hold you to any le…

I think you just proved her point - your tone is itself evidence that sexism is a problem on sites like HN. By using the phrase "big bad men" you are engaging in precisely the sort of gender-oriented down-talking that she is complaining about. You are not just criticizing her, you are implying that she's an emotional woman who can't play with the big boys. I don't know anything about the author, but just reading her…

How can you be so certain that her interpretation, or your interpretation, of what is happening is actually in line with reality? One cannot simply observe something and immediately react emotionally and simultaneously imagine that they've just completely nailed the core of the issue with complete accuracy and no misunderstanding has taken place whatsoever.

From my subjective perspective for example the OP you're responding to used the phrase "big bad men" to sum up the article case that the problem is sexism / men / external rather than her lack of understanding / expectations of unearned respect / internal. It's up for argument which one of these positions is valid, but I just don't grasp how people can immediately jump for the second one as if it were indisputable truth?

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#68

Post by acgourley » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:36 AM UTC

thaumaturgy wrote: post #58

rachelbythebay wrote: post #42

>> He sat in on the crowd-sourced process of writing of the application, contributing nothing except criticism to anything I wrote for hours. That's the part of this post which really grabbed me. I went through the same sort of thing in a corporate environment not too long ago. I had suffered through discovering a massive security hole on an internal system, managing disclosure to just the right groups, writing the f…

I'm going to piggy-back on your comment here solely because I've appreciated your comments in the past: There clearly are talented women in tech (and other fields, I know a pretty amazing CEO), and clearly this is a problem that a lot of men aren't "getting", in the sense that either they don't see it as a problem or they don't know what to do about it. Do you think there's an opportunity yet for some of the leading…

RockHealth is run by all women right now. AFAIK that outcome is not dictated by any founding principal, merely inertia. They are doing phenomenal, so there is one data point for you.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#69

Post by w1ntermute » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:38 AM UTC

mcantelon wrote: post #44

w1ntermute wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And learning is great. But there are cases where I think the author was expecting too much. For example, she applied for a speaking spot at a conference despite her lack of experience. She said that her family offered childcare only if she got a speaking spot, but that doesn't mean she should have just applied for it or expected to get a spot when she didn't have the necessary experience, just so she could participat…

>she applied for a speaking spot at a conference despite her lack of experience Non-technical are not unusual at that conference as they know they'll get a wider perspective that way.

Even if that is the case, it doesn't change the fact that she clearly felt the other guy would have a better chance of getting the spot. Otherwise, why didn't she just apply like the other guy had already done, and let the best (by whatever standards they want, whether it be experience or perspective) person be selected by the conference organizers?

Tell me, how would you feel if you had already prepared and turned in an application, and then some random person asks you to instead help with an application for a "panel" to replace the individual speaking spot you had already applied for? That man had absolutely no obligation to indulge the author's desire to have a panel.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#70

Post by marcosdumay » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 2:46 AM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #18

w1ntermute wrote: post #5

The problem with this woman's story is that she takes a few cases of explicit sexism and extrapolates them as the reason why everyone is saying rude things to her. Or at least that's how I see it. Perhaps she is just commenting on the general douchebaggery of the community, but even then much of the criticism she received could be seen as fair if she was actually in the wrong. Although sexism is clearly an issue in t…

I agree with you, but I give her a bit more benefit of the doubt. There's definitely an element of negativity in some areas of hacker culture. As a white male it's easy to accept it as impersonal, but if you're in the 0.6% of women at an infosec conference, it's easy to see how a few instances of subtle or not-so-subtle sexism could make the negativity seem much more personal.

Or, to put it in another light.

As a non-victim, it's easy to conclude that just about 1% of the people have some random bad behaviour. As one of the 0,5% that are victims, it's quite obvious that there are 2 jerks for each one of your kind, and they have nothing better to do.