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Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

asherwolf.com

41–50 of 160 posts

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#41
post #30
post #17

If you are a man reading this, I invite you to: a. Resist the urge to pick apart the OP's life and criticize how/what she said. b. Honestly reflect, without shame or blame, about what you know of sexism. What do you understand of it? What do you understand it's roots are, and how it works? What do you think your responsibility is, as a man, and as a member of this community? I invite you to do this, because it's a ch…

This was horrible to read.

What do you mean? Writing style? It's my run on sentences isn't it.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#42
>> He sat in on the crowd-sourced process of writing of the application, contributing nothing except criticism to anything I wrote for hours.

That's the part of this post which really grabbed me. I went through the same sort of thing in a corporate environment not too long ago. I had suffered through discovering a massive security hole on an internal system, managing disclosure to just the right groups, writing the fix myself, and making sure it was 100% patched in production before talking about it. This went on for over a month.

When I did finally talk about it on an internal system, someone on the internal security team spotted it and said I should expand it a bit to add some recommendations about how others might avoid creating the same sort of hole in the future. I asked if they had any restrictions on content, length, or whatever, and they said that I could just keep doing what I had been doing.

I took that as a thumbs-up and started working on my new and improved writeup. This "version 2" had code snippets showing the actual problem, a walkthrough of how it happened in the first place, and details about how I managed reporting and containing it (including escalation to appropriate corporate security folks). I fired it off and waited.

Instead of a "thanks!" and an appearance in their next issue, someone else from the security team jumped on it and started raising issues with my prose. I was either "too chatty" or "too wordy" or similar, and basically, he had his own ideas for what a post should look like, and I didn't write like him, so he didn't like it. I told them they could "take it or leave it" as-is, and they wound up rejecting it.

I turned around and self-published it internally, using the same sort of chat-type channels my original writeup had used. A bunch of people spotted it and shared it around, and I got a bunch of comments. These were just ordinary engineers, not the special "security" ones who had turned me down. Yet, they managed to focus on the security and technical content of the piece, and actually found a bug in what I had written! I got some logic inverted somewhere, and they caught it, so I fixed it. The document improved as a direct result of sharing it with them.

Meanwhile, the so-called security guy was so fixated on my writing style that he had apparently failed to look at the actual technical content within.

It's that last point I want to emphasize here: some people get so fixated on the container that they completely miss the technical content (or ability) inside. That's just one way sexism rears its ugly head at times in my experience.

Original post: http://rachelbythebay.com/w/2011/11/11/prose/

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#43
post #23

" I didn’t create Cryptoparty just so a bunch of privileged white boys could.." Why did she drag race into it? Completely unnecessary. She has valid points without this.

Her agenda is about making crypto accessible to lots of people that it's not currently available to. To those people, hackerdom often looks like an undifferentiated mass of white dudes. Leaving race out of a discussion like that is not a neutral thing: omitting race is a statement of its own.

This isn't the white males fault though, I am sure all of them would be happy to see more diversity. The event is open invite though and this is the crowd that it attracts right now.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She does explicitly acknowledge her own lack of technical knowledge (e.g. where she notes that she was not qualified to evaluate the technical components of the cryptoparty manual). And still, we should hope to be a community that embraces a willingness to learn regardless of current technical knowledge.

And learning is great. But there are cases where I think the author was expecting too much. For example, she applied for a speaking spot at a conference despite her lack of experience. She said that her family offered childcare only if she got a speaking spot, but that doesn't mean she should have just applied for it or expected to get a spot when she didn't have the necessary experience, just so she could participat…

>she applied for a speaking spot at a conference despite her lack of experience

Non-technical are not unusual at that conference as they know they'll get a wider perspective that way.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#45
This 'letter' is addressed to the hacker community, but I've seen similar behaviour at other male-dominated conferences, specifically commercial construction conferences/seminars.

I'm not trying to get the hacker community off the hook for their behaviour, I just wonder if the discussion needs to be broadened?

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#46

>> He sat in on the crowd-sourced process of writing of the application, contributing nothing except criticism to anything I wrote for hours. That's the part of this post which really grabbed me. I went through the same sort of thing in a corporate environment not too long ago. I had suffered through discovering a massive security hole on an internal system, managing disclosure to just the right groups, writing the f…

>That's just one way sexism rears its ugly head at times in my experience

Sorry but what in your story shows that it's sexism? It could easily have happened to a guy or been done by a lady security expert and is more a symptom of a superiority complex.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#47
So she is getting mad because people did things $differently at their own crypto parties and didn't obey when she told them to do otherwise?

And then all those people who created unofficial IRC channels and didn't add those to the wiki?

This whole article sounds like an ego-thing rather than gender based discrimination.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#48
post #8

They (big bad men) gave you trouble for seemingly valid difference in opinions, deal with it. And please don't imply that the HN has any hand in fostering misogyny or sexism because it's a completely false characterization of the community at large. In fact if you haven't picked up on it yet we're actually one of the more "progressive" and or liberal industries. But that doesn't mean we're going to hold you to any le…

I think you just proved her point - your tone is itself evidence that sexism is a problem on sites like HN.

By using the phrase "big bad men" you are engaging in precisely the sort of gender-oriented down-talking that she is complaining about. You are not just criticizing her, you are implying that she's an emotional woman who can't play with the big boys.

I don't know anything about the author, but just reading her post and your response, it is quite obvious that there is a genuine problem here, and that problem is you and people like you.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#49

>> He sat in on the crowd-sourced process of writing of the application, contributing nothing except criticism to anything I wrote for hours. That's the part of this post which really grabbed me. I went through the same sort of thing in a corporate environment not too long ago. I had suffered through discovering a massive security hole on an internal system, managing disclosure to just the right groups, writing the f…

>That's just one way sexism rears its ugly head at times in my experience Sorry but what in your story shows that it's sexism? It could easily have happened to a guy or been done by a lady security expert and is more a symptom of a superiority complex.

Yeah, as stated that doesn't sound sexist at all. That sounds like an exchange I've had with male colleagues from both perspectives.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#50

>> He sat in on the crowd-sourced process of writing of the application, contributing nothing except criticism to anything I wrote for hours. That's the part of this post which really grabbed me. I went through the same sort of thing in a corporate environment not too long ago. I had suffered through discovering a massive security hole on an internal system, managing disclosure to just the right groups, writing the f…

>That's just one way sexism rears its ugly head at times in my experience Sorry but what in your story shows that it's sexism? It could easily have happened to a guy or been done by a lady security expert and is more a symptom of a superiority complex.

I'm mostly talking about the situation of reacting to the "wrapping" and missing the content entirely. The fact it comes from person X instead of person Y, and person X is not like person Y. When you see it enough times, you start hypothesizing about why it happens. Then you share notes with others in your situation and your hypothesis gets stronger.

... then you post about it to HN and have a handful of comments insist that it's not happening at all.

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