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Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

bbc.com

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Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#441

Post by don_esteban »

glenstein wrote: post #402
koonsolo wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But all those political divisions are a result of national politics of those countries. Do you claim that Russia doesn't invest in disinformation campaigns against the West?

They certainly seem to be implying it. And not only that, disinformation narratives often to to emphasize domestic political troubles that fan the flames of skepticism against mainstream institutions, and their reply to a topic about Russia was to go straight to that particular well.

When the mainstream institutions are obviously divorced from reality ( Nordstream - "Russians did it themselves", or every mainstream news segment in spring 2022 starting with "unprovoked full scale invasion of Ukraine" where even a casual glance at numbers involved (~ 180000) pales in comparison with what US used in Iraq I or II), you don't need disinformation narratives to elicit skepticism against mainstream institutions. A bit of common sense is entirely sufficient.

One could even argue the mainstream institutions were involved in disinformation narratives (e.g., in the case of 40 beheaded babies or widespread systematic rape on Oct 7th: did not bother to check the facts before spreading it wide).

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#442

Post by alexejb »

fer wrote: post #335
alexejb wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zero karma Yep, that is the high price one must pay for dissenting opinions in a discourse where nuance and discussion no longer exist.

It's the price of regurgitating the most unsophisticated fifth columnist narratives.

The tropes about Putin in my sarcastic post above are all from western media or were said by high ranking Western officials at some point in time. The cloned Putin / Putin doubles thing was claimed by Budanov himself as far as I can remember. And Kiev never lies, does it?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#443

Post by adwn »

kadoban wrote: post #430
throwaway85825 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Kremlin wants europe to take an overt action to justify mobilization. There are many better assymetric ways for europe to retaliate.

> Because the Kremlin wants europe to take an overt action to justify mobilization. Do they? Why? They're already in a stalemate of a conflict, why would they want more fully-mobilized enemies?

Russia wants an excuse to justify mobilization in Russia, not in Europe.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#444

Post by gambiting »

Zigurd wrote: post #407
century19 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russians are Europeans.

Many, maybe even most Russians would like to be part of Europe, even if they would complain about the terms that would enable them to join pan European organizations. For now they are just potential Europeans.

....half of Russia lies in Europe, if someone born in Moscow isn't European what are they?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#445

Post by paganel »

darkwi11ow wrote: post #353
paganel wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope western countries will respond in kind with the mass sabotage acts I live in Bucharest, the closest NATO capital to the clusterfuck in Southern Ukraine, when you'll get conscripted/when you'll volunteer and when you'll arrive here at Bucharest Northern Railway station just ping me, I'll be very happy to help a HN-er who thinks he's fighting for the right cause. Cause you are a NATO citizen, aren't you? Meani…

Why dont you remigrate back to Moscow if you are so proud of your motherland? edit: remigrate, not emigrate

> remigrate

Found the German. As the Italians put it: "non c'e due senza tre", it seems like you guys are dead-bent on doing it for a third time. Morgenthau was 100% correct on his plan, too bad things didn't go his way.

Btw, two of my grand-grand-dads got land allotments after WW1 on account of putting their lives on the line for my country against you, Germans, so I'm talking from shared family experience.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#446

Post by distances »

zergrush wrote: post #315

Why do people automatically jump to conclusion that it was Russia in the comments? They haven't even released any evidence or investigation yet in official sense.

There are over 200 incidents of suspected Russian sabotage in Europe in recent years. [1] They continuously drum up the EU as the enemy. I think it's prudent to take them at their own word, and accept we're at active hybrid war with them.

We should assume by default now that every single act of sabotage is linked to Russia, before any investigation even. Then if evidence points elsewhere, we can update the suspect for that single event.

[1] https://apnews.com/article/germany-leipzig-airport-explosive...

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#447

Post by distances »

dolmen wrote: post #240
nelox wrote: post #81

I would be surprised if it wasn’t by Russia. Russian infrastructure is being systematically destroyed by Ukraine with funding, training, intelligence and materiel from Europe. This is an attempt to discourage European support by disrupting Europeans.

It is good for Russ.a even if they didn't even organize it: everybody thinks it's them, but they might not have even spent anything on it.

I don't think it's good for them. The more people see Russia as the enemy, the stronger the support for Ukraine.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#448

Post by Paradigma11 »

throwaway85825 wrote: post #351
spwa4 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it. Why? EU countries have shown time and time again they won't do anything. I mean for God's sake, Russia was caught sending THREE remote controlled flying bomb on a German airfield, with another one found by a passerby before it was launched. They contained professionally made Russian explosives. There is no doubt who did it. This was not the first,…

Because the Kremlin wants europe to take an overt action to justify mobilization. There are many better assymetric ways for europe to retaliate.

Just send more aid to Ukraine and it will be raining oil again in Moscow.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#449

Post by spwa4 »

etc-hosts wrote: post #428
brookst wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because being too blatant will galvanize the public and create support for open war. The goal is to ensure all reasonable people know, while keeping enough deniability that Russian-funded right-wing groups can sow doubt about attribution and response policy’s They don’t care whether it can be proven in court or by people paying close attention. They care whether it can’t be denied even by their aligned agents in west…

The Russians have learned from the best. Look up how successful the US has been in getting right wing crazy people elected as the heads of state in nearly every Central and South American country by funding right-wing groups, with the exception of Mexico and Brazil (but top minds are working on this).

Russia has been trying to get locals to elect governments on their side and even revolt and destroy their own countries to do so ... since 1917. They used the red army to make this happen in most of Eastern Europe, half of Asia, Africa, South America, Middle America ... and they're still at it in quite a few places (like Africa). They fought until their state collapsed to change the government in Afghanistan.

Just because the US does something bad, does not mean others don't do 100x worse. In both meanings of the word.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#450

Post by distances »

nullorempty wrote: post #417

A lot of the commenters blame Russia, and ... have you looked at the map? Netherlands is one of the countries that are furthest away from Russia! And then, there are countries that take much more active stance against Russia - Germany for example. Should Russia send a message it will probably be to the countries that stir shit.

There are over 200 acts of sabotage in Europe linked/suspected to Russia. There's plenty to go around for everyone, and somehow people are still hesitant to say we're in active hybrid war.
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