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Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

bbc.com

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Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#431

Post by wolvoleo »

microtonal wrote: post #248
Telemakhos wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised people jump to Russia instead of the radical left. Left-wing environmentalist terrorists attached shunts to rail lines to short out the safety signals back in 2020 in the US [0]. Vulkangruppe has been conducting sabotage in Germany, and a 48-year-old named Daniel V was arrested on suspicion of sabotaging Germany's electrical grid because he hated fossil fuels [1]. The French had left-wing environmentali…

Several reasons: - Extinction Rebellion and other environmental groups always claim the action pretty quickly and openly in NL. - If you look at the locations of sabotage, it’s all close to the ‘farmer heartland’. Most left-wing and environmental groups would do it in the randstad. Most likely it’s farmers. They announced very heavy protests today and also burnt hay near highways to create smoke clouds. Possibly nudg…

Also, extinction rebellion goes after motorways blocking private cars, not trains which are a sustainable mode of transport they support.

No, I'm pretty sure this would have been a farmer splinter group. The last time they protested with tractors on the motorways it caused a deadly accident, they won't be getting away with that anymore. So they'll be looking for new ways to protest.

Also, today was Prinsjesdag, similar to the state of the Union in the US. It was a day to expect local protests. Nobody in the Netherlands thinks Russia is behind this.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#432

Post by wolvoleo »

grey-area wrote: post #279

Russia is at war with Europe. Europe is not yet at war with Russia but it will be in time.

We should just build up enough nuclear deterrent to prevent Russia from attacking us.

We've been dependent on the US for this but this was also by the US' own design. They didn't want many countries to have nukes. So the whole 'Europe is not doing its bit' is not really justified.

We don't need more tanks and soldiers because if we go at Russia like Ukraine does, so many people will die that it doesn't matter who wins. We just need to be able to destroy Russia so thoroughly that they won't think about attacking us, just like they don't attack the US. Mutually assured destruction has kept the world safe for almost a century but now with the US no longer committed to NATO we just need to build our own.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#433

Post by bamboozled »

headsman771 wrote: post #425
zergrush wrote: post #315

Why do people automatically jump to conclusion that it was Russia in the comments? They haven't even released any evidence or investigation yet in official sense.

[flagged]

European governments (and American) have been drumming up fear and hatred of Russia for more than 50 years.

Let's see Russia is actively committing genocide against Ukrainians, Actively commits war crimes against civilian infrastructure, Invaded Crimea, Shot down MH17 and murdered 283 innocent people, constantly broadcasted plans and imagery of nuking American cities, assassinated people in the UK using extremely dangerous nerve agents, is actively boasting about and planning sabotage within the European uninion against civilian targets...

So yeah,,,weird that people would be worried about them?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#434

Post by bamboozled »

dolmen wrote: post #240
nelox wrote: post #81

I would be surprised if it wasn’t by Russia. Russian infrastructure is being systematically destroyed by Ukraine with funding, training, intelligence and materiel from Europe. This is an attempt to discourage European support by disrupting Europeans.

It is good for Russ.a even if they didn't even organize it: everybody thinks it's them, but they might not have even spent anything on it.

I believe it will only accelerate the end of Putin and his regime, so I don't actually think this is good for Russia if it wasn't them.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#435

Post by golem14 »

FeloniousHam wrote: post #376
throwaway85825 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Kremlin wants europe to take an overt action to justify mobilization. There are many better assymetric ways for europe to retaliate.

I think it's to slowly increase offenses _that won't lead to military response_. The response to each individual incident, worse than the one before, kinetic action can be delayed because "this was only a little worse than the last one". This compounds because NATO needs to act collectively to effectively act militarily (maybe Poland could go it alone).

The famous salami tactic (Yes, Minister)

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#436

Post by petre »

chmod775 wrote: post #305
account42 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes technically countries can just attack others. In practice they need to justify those attacks to their allies and populace if they want to maintain the status quo with them. That's where "they started it, we're only defending ourselves" is very helpful.

The response is typically sending diplomats home, cancelling agreements, and sanctions. Something proportional. Not immediate outright war.

Romania has reluctantly done exactly that after the drone incident and tensions have escalated. The Romanians closed the Russian consulate in Constanta as a response and sent the consul back to Russia. The Russians sent an hijacked Ukrainian drone that blew up after 5 hours in the port of Constanta just after this. Now they're slowly escalating by periodically sending drones into Romanian airspace or attacking cargo ships bound from/to Odessa while in the Romanian EEZ.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#437

Post by don_esteban »

hdgvhicv wrote: post #405
vintermann wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> defensive capabilities to Ukraine With you up until there. There's nothing defensive about drones. Retributive capabilities certainly, pre-emptive capabilities maybe, but absolutely offensive capabilities, not defensive ones. Attacking Russia back was a line that was definitively crossed in May 2024. You may argue it was justified, but not that it wasn't attacking. In terms of that stupid punching analogy (which wa…

So when someone is firing missiles at you, it’s not defensive to blow up the launcher?

The Ukrainian drones are not blowing up launchers. They are blowing up refineries and warehouses.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#438

Post by headsman771 »

bamboozled wrote: post #433
headsman771 wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

European governments (and American) have been drumming up fear and hatred of Russia for more than 50 years. Let's see Russia is actively committing genocide against Ukrainians, Actively commits war crimes against civilian infrastructure, Invaded Crimea, Shot down MH17 and murdered 283 innocent people , constantly broadcasted plans and imagery of nuking American cities, assassinated people in the UK using extremely da…

What's always conveniently left out of lists like this is the greater context in which it occurred. Any state will go to great lengths to protect themselves and ensure their survival.

Ukraine is an excellent example. Look at all of the ways they're attacking Russia internationally, even using "terroristic" tactics. It's justified because they're fighting for their survival.

The West has been bent on Russia's destruction since the cold war, and it didn't end with the fall of the USSR.

I won't bother with a point by point, but take the death toll of MH17. The US has probably killed 10x that amount of innocent people as collateral damage while striking weddings and religious services. And yet it's not brought up in lists about how dangerous we are.

As for whether Russia has anything to fear from the west, well, just look at Venezuela and Iran. It's a good indication of what we'd like to do to them.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#439

Post by cineticdaffodil »

krisoft wrote: post #383
spwa4 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it. Why? EU countries have shown time and time again they won't do anything. I mean for God's sake, Russia was caught sending THREE remote controlled flying bomb on a German airfield, with another one found by a passerby before it was launched. They contained professionally made Russian explosives. There is no doubt who did it. This was not the first,…

> The idea that the Kremlin is worried in the slightest that you can prove it's them is absurd. I mean they are. That is the reason they haven’t sent balistic missiles to the same airfield. They could have sent the same agents who placed those drones to the fence of the airport with a shoulder mounted missile and shot down the planes as they were departing. Or even shoot them down on the ground. Or similarly they cou…

[dead]

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#440

Post by alexejb »

scrollaway wrote: post #395
fer wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the price of regurgitating the most unsophisticated fifth columnist narratives.

The price is far too small. Active propaganda on behalf of a rogue state is an act of war and should be treated as such, IMO.

I get it.

Like a great statesman once said: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

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