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Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

bbc.com

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Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#381

Post by throwaway85825 »

FeloniousHam wrote: post #376
throwaway85825 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Kremlin wants europe to take an overt action to justify mobilization. There are many better assymetric ways for europe to retaliate.

I think it's to slowly increase offenses _that won't lead to military response_. The response to each individual incident, worse than the one before, kinetic action can be delayed because "this was only a little worse than the last one". This compounds because NATO needs to act collectively to effectively act militarily (maybe Poland could go it alone).

Europe could just conscript migrants for the AFU but alas it's politically impossible. Would at least prevent the domestic anti NATO propaganda.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#382

Post by djj18 »

throwaway85825 wrote: post #354
123-asks wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is ruled by evil, murderous tyrants Yes, and Stalin was Georgian, Kaganowitch was Ukrainian (and orchestrated the Ukrainian Holodomor), Breshnev was Ukrainian and so on. The alternative parties are not pro-Russia. They want to trade with a totalitarian regime just like we trade with Saudi Arabia. And they'll break their election promises anyway just like Meloni and Trump broke theirs.

Was Ukrainian really what was listed as nationality on the propiska?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich

Born in Ukraine, first Secretary of the Communist Party of Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Brezhnev

Born on current Ukraine territory (unless you wish to argue that it should belong to Russia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Brezhnev#Early_life_and...

"Brezhnev's ethnicity was given as Ukrainian in some documents, including his passport, and Russian in others."

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#383

Post by krisoft »

spwa4 wrote: post #245
DrScientist wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it. You have both the desired threat, but no concrete biases for an official response. Also an uncertainty limits action - it might be a random event, it could even be a false flag. One of the problem's here is narratives are being spun by multiple actors and it depends on who you believe.

> The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it. Why? EU countries have shown time and time again they won't do anything. I mean for God's sake, Russia was caught sending THREE remote controlled flying bomb on a German airfield, with another one found by a passerby before it was launched. They contained professionally made Russian explosives. There is no doubt who did it. This was not the first,…

> The idea that the Kremlin is worried in the slightest that you can prove it's them is absurd.

I mean they are. That is the reason they haven’t sent balistic missiles to the same airfield. They could have sent the same agents who placed those drones to the fence of the airport with a shoulder mounted missile and shot down the planes as they were departing. Or even shoot them down on the ground.

Or similarly they could send a submarine and disrupt the railway services of the Netherlands with missiles from that.

Those would be clearly attributable actions which trigger an immediate military response. That is the reason why they don’t do them.

You look at the actions they take and conclude that they don’t have any restraint or worries. But you should also be looking at the actions they could have but did not take to see that they are in fact restrained and probably quite a bit worried. If they werent they would play the game differently.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#384

Post by vanviegen »

pjc50 wrote: post #268
vanviegen wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this deference is largely inspired by the police not knowing how to deal with these huge tractors.

Rubbish. They don't want to. The tractors have license plates, allowing them to be pursued after the fact, and the NL police have firearms if they want to get spicy. There have been a number of attacks in Europe of the form "deranged person drives vehicle into crowd". I'm sure the police wouldn't sit back and shrug if that was done with a tractor. The vehicle doesn't have magic properties, the driver has police prote…

The protestors tape their license plates. And I'm happy to report Dutch police generally doesn't draw guns on people who are no direct threat.

And how is the "vehicle driven into crowd" even relevant here? Nobody's using these tractors to kill (intentionally), but they're just many and hard to stop.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#385

Post by komposit »

I live here. It is the disgruntled farmers whodunnit. There is no measure these onions wont take to defend their stranglehold on our little land. Block the highways with tractors. Sabotage the railways. Intimidate politicians. All because we are sensibly trying to limit their ability to pollute our soils with nitrogen and ask them to leave some space for people to build houses on but nay tmust all be spent towards producing cowfeed yuck

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#386

Post by Den_VR »

smallstepforman wrote: post #231
Muromec wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

\One thing that logic would dictate though is that Russia would be extremely low on the list of suspects since they gain nothing and are negatively affected in every manner possible by being in any way behind such actions. They are known for actions that negatively affect them and everyone around. That's kinda their whole thing.

[flagged]

So gullible as to believe… that Putin’s Russian has been taking action year after year with negative consequences for every Russian partner?

Hmm.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#387

Post by red-iron-pine »

hnlmorg wrote: post #230
hgomersall wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want to keep it deniable? What's the point in this sort of sabotage if nobody knows you did it?

Because otherwise it would be an act of war. At which point they might as well have just fired a rocket into the country.

finish the thought: this means you need to retaliate. You either step up and hit back, or look weak and invite further problems.

random vandals -- that's just local scumbags being scumbags. These things happens, no need to start WWIII

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#388

Post by red-iron-pine »

nahgF wrote: post #289
apt-get wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not asserting this is definitely a Russian op (given the amount of simultaneous farmers' protests and all in NL today), but their modus operandi for foreign operations of this kind involves paying random thugs a few hundred to a couple thousand euros to carry out acts of sabotage using whatever items they have on hand. The items don't need to match, the people involved don't need to know each other.

[flagged]

the US government is owned lock and stock by the Russians. They do not want more proxies, and under Trump, are actively trying to fracture NATO.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#389

Post by tremon »

logicchains wrote: post #343
HelloUsername wrote: post #29

Might be related to today's yearly 'Prinsjesdag' in the Netherlands: The day on which the reigning monarch of the Netherlands addresses a joint session of the States-General of the Netherlands (consisting of the Senate and the House of Representatives) to give the Speech from the Throne (Dutch: Troonrede), similar to the annual State of the Union in the United States or the British State Opening of Parliament. This s…

>Speech from the Throne (Dutch: Troonrede) Is "troonrede" essentially just the Dutch pronunciation of "Throne read"?

Yes and no. "rede" is a noun and has two syllables (ray-də) and means address (as in Gettysburg address). It's an archaic word, nowadays we would use "toespraak" (speech) or "lezing" (lecture). The word does share its origin with the modern English "to read", but no Dutch speaker would interpret "rede" to mean the same as a parent reading a child a bedtime story.

And troon == throne, obviously.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#390

Post by IAmBroom »

glenstein wrote: post #297
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all those political divisions are a result of national politics of those countries. People want higher wages, less taxes, affordable housing, more recently cheaper gas/diesel, and in the last decade (or more in some places), less foreign migrants. If no other political party will do anything about that, people are forced to vote for Alternatives (intentionally capitalized). Especially after all the anti-russian p…

This is a completely all over the place gish gallop. Both can be true: there's real reporting on acts of sabotage that aren't made up, and there are domestic tensions happening independently of that. The skill is keeping both things in your mind at the same time.

You're being downvoted for a reasonable position. Both can be true.
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